The PCGS Coin Sniffer

I guess my point is that some chemicals actually change the surface of a coin by their application other don't.

One type are chemicals that actually change the surface of a coin. VG is one example, but so are common dips like JL, or surface toning chemicals like Dellers. Even MS70 should be in this group.

Whereas there are other chemicals that don't really change the surface of a coin, but rather inhibit other things from doing so (ore remove contaminates) without chemically altering the underlying coin. BR is one example of this. Acetone, Distilled Water, and Isopropyl Alcohol are examples of others. Remove those things and there is no change in the underlying coin.

Call me crazy, but I see a difference between them. I suspect I am not alone. I'm sorry if you disagree. Please don't take it personally. It's just how I feel.

Respectfully...Mike

 

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I guess the point I take issue with is that once you remove BR there is no more "shiny look" and the coin reverts to the state it was in before applying the oil. Kind of like putting your coin in a chemical airtite.

Same with varnish. I have no problem with a coin whose varnish has been removed -- provided there is no evidence left behind (in reality, this rarely happens).

Now in reality, both BR and varnish have downsides. If BR isn't properly taken care of and evaporates it can cause a splotchy toning -- not good and not MA in my eyes.

Varnish is a bit of a red herring. Similar with BR in that it is applied to stop the coin from toning. In reality it reacts with it and traps/wicks moisture. Leave it there for a long time and the underlying surface becomes corroded in many cases -- again bad.

I guess I just don't see the application of an inert oil as being a bad thing, and certainly nowhere near as far up the "bad" scale as something like a dip in JL or even VG, or the skillful application of a rose thorn or DD.

 

FWIW, NGC's perspective seems to diverge from PCGS with respect to the MA of BR on copper.

Said more directly, NGC allows coins with BR in their slabs (see Reiver collection coin, for example). PCGS tends not to -- even before the sniffer.

NGC MS 62 BN Reiver:



It sure appears like BR is on this NGC coin, and even more obvious in-hand -- it has that shiny/oily look (i.e. BR look) you sooooo often see in the cases of Doug Bird, Tom Reynolds, etc. However, it is a look you rarely see in PCGS plastic.

Given my posts above, it should come as no surprise that I prefer NGC's perspective on this issue. But that's just me.

All of the above IMHO and based on my experience, as always....Mike

 

BR is applied a few ways. I use a q-tip not my finger. Remove extras with cotton balls. It does not damage the coin in any way.

And yes, in my experience BR is quite inert over long periods of time. It does not change the surface, in my experience. Of course, I will yield if others have a divergent viewpoint as my first-hand experience is just that -- hardly authoritative and hopefully not presented as such.

It is up to all of us to decide what WE consider MA. Some are fine with BR. Others despise it. Some are fine with a dip in jeweluster, others shun those coins. Some much prefer the verdigris-free look of a coin treated with VG, others like corroded coins in all their glory. Who are any of us to judge the likes and dislikes of others? Certainly not me, but that doesn't change the fact that we all have our own likes and dislikes, and these likes and dislikes often vary by "type" of coin treatment.

The challenge, of course, is that against this vast and varying landscape of collectors likes and dislikes are the TPGs, and their interpretation of these in terms of MA and non-MA. When the TPGs "decide for us" what's acceptable or not, and how this impacts the collecting public (or mimics the collecting public) is when the rubber meets the road, so to speak.

 

I think you underestimate the graders at TPGs. If I could spot the coins at age 10, I have to believe professional graders spot it but simply look the other way in varying degrees while shielded by the old MA moniker.

That said, I do look, quite carefully, at the TPGs slabbing of copper, and I stand by what I said -- you will find far more coins in NGC holders with BR than you will PCGS.

 

My question is? If you submit a circulation find it could have innocently come in contact with some of the products named in the video would it be rejected? Many of them are very common. For example I have a antique table in my kitchen that is finished with beeswax (Beeswax finish= beeswax, linseed oil, turpentine) If a coin was set on the table it could pick up some of the beeswax finish.

 

Dear Bad,

whet is the progress on the toner?

i also suggest making a red spot remover for pure gold coins

Thanks

 

i told you to use biox but no u made the switch and it has bought u grief

 

a problem coin can never ever be fixed if you dont like the coin just sell it and buy another one. that's what my teacher taught me

 

dear ratpack

intent is impossible to prove. the tpg claim to call it as they see it but we all know their prescription glasses have been forgotten at home

dear gd

luster gets impaired after the first dip it becomes noticeable after a few

 

While you're at it, would you please comment on "Nose Grease"? Personally I feel that nose grease would be the same as the oils from the hands and one would expect oils on the surface of a coin either circulated or uncirculated.

All this sniffer BS really concerns me in that it opens the door for PCGS to broaden their rejection of perfectly acceptable coins based upon mechanical opinion and that mechanical "opinion" requires calibrating on a regular basis.

BTW, if it detects nose grease, is it really nose grease or is it finger oils from someone casually scratching their nose?

I don't know about all this.

 

I've decided to hold off on that VERDI-TONE. The development takes too long and I was getting beat-up to badly. LOL Perhaps I'll work on it again in the future.....we'll see...

 

Hey BadThad, you mentioned earlier in this thread that Verdi-gone is no longer for sale?
Does that mean you will give me some for free? But really, I can't get it anywhere?
Or is Verdi-Care the same thing?

-greg

 

Thad,

I hope "getting beat up" wasn't from the board. I know I had concerns, but it more long term issues. If you are putting this product on hiatus, I would suggest using it on a few coins and see what happens in a year or two. With that data I would have been more comfortable with your product. Sorry I have just seen way too many products on the market over the last 30 years that said they had no long term affects, but ended up destroying a lot of coins. That was my concern.

Chris

 

VERDI-GONE is no longer made because VERDI-CARE™ is a lot better. It's completely different from VG, there's nothing in common chemically.

You can buy VC from either Wizard Coin Supply or from eBay.

 

You worry too much. LOL

Other coin toner products were probably not developed by chemists with years of experience in metalworking. When I develop a coin product, I put a lot of thought into the science. For example with VT, I don't simply dissolve sulfur into oil like Dellars does. VERDI-TONE is much more complex. It gases the coin with hydrogen sulfide using a slow-release technology. The only things that contact the coin are air and H2S. The long-term effects would be no different than natural toning because it's the EXACT same process.

I suggest you read the book Coin Chemistry so you and fully understand the chemistry involved.