The PCGS Coin Sniffer

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by raider34, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. raider34

    raider34 Active Member

    Saw this video linked over on CU, it went up on Youtube yesterday. Anyway, it's a video of PCGS's "Coin Sniffer". Secure Plus Update II - Coin Sniffer

    Pretty interesting video. Don't forget to pay close attention at the 1:21 mark, can the coin sniffer smell fingerprints in the fields?
     
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  3. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    I noticed that too , where are her white gloves ? or at least hold the coin properly .
     
  4. Shoewrecky

    Shoewrecky Coin Hoarder

    could you give a description of what is taking place. I cant access youtube at work :(
     
  5. Collect89

    Collect89 Coin Collector

    Thanks for the link. It is an interesting list of contaminants for which they are capable of testing. I noticed Blue Ribbon, Del's Darkener, & Vertigone were on the list.
     
  6. Collect89

    Collect89 Coin Collector

    In the video, PCGS is using a snifer to detect chemical residues on the surface of coins.
     
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I find it interesting that all of the things like Blue Ribbon, Coin Care, mineral oil, renaissance wax etc. that I have told people that were not acceptable on coins, are now proven to be unacceptable. Some used to always argue with me that these things were acceptable and then they would point to coins that were slabbed even though these products were used on the coins by them.

    My arguement was that the only reason they got slabbed was because the TPG did not recognize, see, or catch that the substance had been used on the coin. That had the TPG been aware, that the coin would never have been slabbed.

    Of course that now pesents us with another issue - how many thousands of these problem coins are currently in NGC/PCGS slabs ? And what's going to happen when those collectors who own these coins realize that the value of their collection may have just dropped by 80% ?

    And I am saddened by seeing that Thad's product Verdi-Gone, and quite probably Verdi-Care, are also included in the non acceptable list.
     
  8. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    OMG....that's is hilarious! They have VERDI-GONE right there in the video! How cool! Too bad it's 100% undetectible by FTIR after use and drying..... it's also no longer being sold! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Their FTIR library is ultra weak. Also, FTIR on the coin surface using the technique their employing requires a large sample size to get a good enough spectra for a match. Putty could be detected, but when there's only trace PPB levels, there's no way in hell they're going to detect it with that. Most of it is smoke and mirrors to scare people.

    Thanks for the post, made my day!
     
  9. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    No reason to be sad! VERDI-CARE is designed for use on problem coins that probably would not have been graded anyway. It's not designed as a fluid to sneak coins past the TPG's and I make no claim that coins conserved with it will pass TPG grading. VC is quite different from VERDI-GONE and could possibly be detected using FTIR. Although I didn't see it in their library list, I suspect it could have been added after the video was made since it's becoming quite popular.

    In the lab I have an FTIR with a ATR (Attenuated Total Reflectance) accessory, I'll have to run some tests on my own to see if I can detect it. :smile
     
  10. hamman88

    hamman88 Spare some change, sir?

    That music at the beginning was horrible!
     
  11. Mark14

    Mark14 Star Wide Receiver

    agreed
     
  12. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Why would you feel that way for something like Blue Ribbon, which is essentially an oil that does nothing to the surface of a coin, yet for something like Verdi-Gone, that phyisically changes the surface of a coin, it's OK? Those two perspectives seem to be incongruous, and exactly opposite of what I would have expected you to say. Care to explain? Just curious....Mike
     
  13. gbroke

    gbroke Naturally Toned

    This type of technology really seems to go to the point where it removes any fun in collecting, or actually doesn't have anything to do with collecting.

    Now eye appeal, and how that coins make you feel when your looking at it in person is pointless. This is really geared to people who are only concerned about the value of their coin for investment, or dealing. Am I way off base here?

    I am an average coin collector, meaning someone who doesn't purchase high end slabbed items. I am the type of collector that is trying to complete full books of coins in BU/MS condition. So when I see a raw coin that is in BU condition, I really don't care if at some point in its life, some oil, or blue ribbon was on it, and I pay accordingly.

    I don't know, just ranting... blah blah
     
  14. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    Your statement is incongruous! LMAO So, you're saying those products don't effect the surface but VERDI-GONE does? Care to explain? Apparently you're the expert on all coin solutions...just curious. I'd like to hear the science behind your statement.
     
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It only seems to be incongruous because you are making an assumption, but it's a false assumption. First, all I said was that I was sad about it. I'm sad about it because I had hoped (key word being hoped) that Thad had been able to develop a chemical that would remove verdigris from coins, but yet leave the coin unaltered if you will. Thus turning a problem coin (one with verdigris) into a problem free coin. That the use of his compound would be undetectable.

    The PCGS video leads us to believe that Thad's compound is detectable. Myself I have no idea if it is or is not since I have never used it nor have I ever examined in hand a coin that had been treated with it. I only have the reports posted by others who have used it to go by. As I said, it was a hope.

    Now Thad has since posted that his compound is undetectable by PCGS's machine. Perhaps it is. But even if the machine cannot detect it, I still don't know if my eyes, or other experienced eyes, could detect it or not by observing surface changes to the coin. Kind of like what an over-dipped coin looks like, if you understand what I mean.

    Now, as to the use of Blue Ribbon or a similar product, just like I have said for years, these products present the coin in an altered state. The oil like substances in small quantities make the coin appear to have better luster than it really does and many collectors, dealers, and yes even the vaunted TPGs have been fooled by it many times over the years. Products like this are nothing but "makeup for coins" in my opinion. And no one should ever accept coins that have been treated with these products, again, in my opinion. They are not original, they are altered coins. They have had a substance added to the surface of the coin to make it look like something it is not. And it is all done with the excuse of these products being used to "protect the coin". Well, how is that any different than varnishing your coins - that was done to protect the coin too !

    Now the difference to me between these products and say a coin dip, or hopefully Thad's product, is that a coin dip removes unsightly, and potentially damaging, toning from the coin. And it leaves nothing behind on the surface of the coin. It is no different than using acetone to remove organic materials from a coin. Coin dips and acetone, if used properly, conserve coins and prevent them from acquiring damage. And they leave no trace behind.

    Now of course coin dip can be over-used, and if it is over-used then the luster of the coin is ruined, stripped away forever. And in those cases a coin dip is just as bad as Blue Ribbon or similar products. And if Thad's product alters the coin's surface or strips away luster, then I would include it here as well.

    But that point is as of yet undecided for me.
     
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I don't think Mike is being contradictory, I think he just misundersttod what I was saying. And I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying.

    But, we'll let him speak for himself.
     
  17. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Am I incorrect?

    Does BR affect a coin's surface? It certainly hasn't (outside of stopping surface deterioration) in the 30 years it's been on my coins. Dip it in a solvent like acetone, and it goes away.

    Does VG affect a coin's surface? It certainly did when I used it on copper coins. Dip it in a solvent and the coin is still affected.

    I'm not an expert on anything, but I sure think I know what I've seen with my own two eyes.

    Am I incorrect?

    If I am, I'd sure like to know.

    Sincerely....Mike
     
  18. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Doug, I am curious why you feel Renwax should be banned. I use it all of the time for ancients, it is a reversable product designed by the BM and helps protect coin surfaces. If PCGS can sniff for any trace of that ever on a coin then they better make sure they don't move into ancients.

    Do people use Renwax on BU coins to make them look better? I admit I never used it on US coins, only ancients for protection.
     
  19. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    Yes, they lead you to believe, but it's completely untrue. I've been an analytical chemist for 22 years and I, with 100% certainty and knowing the chemical composition of VERDI-GONE, can tell you there's ZERO chance that instrument (or any) could detect that VERDI-GONE had been used on a coin. That product would leave ZERO residual evidence on the surface. It's nothing but show-boating by PCGS....end of story.

    It's funny to me as an analytical chemist that the person doing the demonstation picked one of the few chemicals that instrument even has the sensitivity to detect. It's also interesting to note the analysis time. It would be impossible for them to do this on every submitted coin. Someone is hand selecting suspect coins for analysis. Personally, I think the coins go to the graders FIRST, they note anything suspect and then send it for analysis.
     
  20. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    ANY chemical you use on the coin is going to affect the surface. Isn't that the point? Why else would you use it? LOL
     
  21. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    I don't think I was being contradictory either, but I'd really like Thad's take on my prior post. I am certainly open to being incorrect.

    And reading your response, I think I did misunderstand your post, and thank you for the explanation -- it makes much more sense now. My perspective is slightly different, and I'll explain it in the post to follow....
     
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