"The Ottomans" on Netflix now.

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Gregory Johnston, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. About the 1453 seige of Constantinople, and the people, places, and things events leading up to it. I'm halfway through it and I find it interesting.
     
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  3. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    Thanks. I am looking for something new to watch.
     
  4. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Looks like a great theme, you never see much on the Ottoman Empire.
     
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  5. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    I was going to post about this as well. It's pretty interesting primarily that you get to see the story of Constantinople's fall as written by Islamic historians for a change. At one point a spy posing as a beggar handles a stavraton (though obviously a prop since it was way too thick). However, I got a little cringe every time I heard the narrators refer to the Byzantines as the "Romans" heheh.

    It's also quite questionable how they portrayed the wealth of the capital and the grumpy Constantine XI's sumptuous garbs, the soldiers all wearing top-shelf chainmail, etc....... In reality there likely was near-zero luxury even in the imperial palace this late into the game. But I get it that that doesn't make for good TV.

    Mehmet's cannon was badass fo' sho'!

    Rasiel
     
  6. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    At one point in time it was the Eastern Roman Empire.....
     
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  7. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    This guy took Constantinople...

    [​IMG]
    Ottoman Turks Sultan Mehmet II 1451-1481 took Constantinople in 1453 Serez mint AR 1.2g
     
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  8. I just finished one of the episodes, 6 I think, in which on of the historian compares two actual coins of Constantine XI and his predecessor in respect to how much money each had, wealth, or lack thereof, is, at the time. One was silver and the other copper, I don't remember now which was which, if Constantine's was the silver or copper one.Then there was a scene where the Romans melted down their silver and holy relics to pay for the Italians who were helping in their defense.
     
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  9. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Even further back it was the Roman Empire, till 410AD when the Germans conquered the Western half, the Eastern Empire shrank to the tiny speck of Constantinople by 1453. Mehmet took that and made it his Capital. Its still Turkish today, except they moved their Capital to Ankara.
     
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  10. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

  11. Bart9349

    Bart9349 Junior Member

    I was a little surprised by the statement, also.

    As we probably all know, the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantines) always referred to themselves as Romans (Romaioi). It wasn't until after the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire (1453) that Western commentators and historians would refer to the Eastern Empire as the Byzantine Empire.

    Historian and numismatist Edward Gibbon popularized the term Byzantine Empire in the English-speaking world and helped to cement its negative connotations in his 18th century opus The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

    An interesting anecdote:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori..._the_byzantines_call_themselves_byzantine_or/



    g.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  12. BenSi

    BenSi Well-Known Member

    If you look at their coins the legends show they always considered themselves to be Romans until the end. I don't think we have the right to remove a title they lived and died for.

    As said above the Byzantine Empire was a title created long after the empires demise for reasons that can be considered a bit controversial.

    The Roman empire fell in 1453.

    I have been enjoying the tale as well. I had never heard the Red Apple story before.
     
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  13. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    It's an affectation. The name Byzantine neatly encapsulates the civilization of the post-Roman world while "Eastern Roman" is a forced association. If one really feels that the two cultures are one and the same then better to drop the "Eastern" altogether to remain consistent. After all, to use the same argument and logic, the Byzantines never called themselves eastern Romans!

    The Eastern Roman term is also unnecessarily vague because it transcends the socio-political civilization which immediately comes to mind when you mention the word Byzantine. How else do you differentiate between the pre- and post-Theodosian Eastern Roman world? What should we call the Eastern Romans during the height of the classical period?

    It's also worth noting that the emperors who most strenuously pushed the Roman identity card did so for political and religious reasons but it was only a skin deep charade that the ordinary citizen would have been completely unaware of. Culturally all of them were, in fact, as Greek as they'd always been.

    Rasiel
     
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  14. BenSi

    BenSi Well-Known Member

    You are right technically, I should have said the Roman Empire in the East but the real point is they never called themselves Byzantine, that is a modern term, the called themselves Roman.

    Both Greek and Latin were official languages of the Roman Empire and in the 7th century it was changed to Greek other than that they were the evolution of an Empire that continued for roughly another 1000 years after the fall of Rome.

    Constantine could not have chosen a better spot for a second capital, a land filled with wealth the result , the west did not have what it needed to survive and the eastern lasted and for a time thrived.

    Simon
     
  15. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Entry of Mehmet into Constantinople:

    [​IMG]

    Also,

    Here is an interesting piece on the acrimony between the eastern church and the roman, which became heavily politicized. The Bishop Liutprand visited Constantinople in the latter 10th century on the behest of Otto the Holy Roman emperor:

    "On the seventh day before the Ides (June 7), moreover, on the sacred day - of Pentecost itself, in the palace which is called the crown hall, I was led before Nicephorus-a monstrosity of a man, a pygmy, fat-headed and like a mole as to the smallness of his eyes; disgusting with his short, broad, thick, and half hoary beard; disgraced by a neck an inch long; very bristly through the length and thickness of his hair; in color an Ethiopian; one whom it would not be pleasant to meet in the middle of the night; with extensive belly, lean of loin, very long of hip considering his short stature, small of shank, proportionate as to his heels and feet; clad in a garment costly but too old, and foul-smelling and faded through age; shod with Sicyonian shoes; bold of tongue, a fox by nature, in perjury, and lying a Ulysses. Always my lords and august emperors you seemed to me shapely, how much more shapely after this! Always magnificent, how much more magnificent after this! Always powerful, how much more powerful after this! Always gentle, how much more gentle henceforth! Always full of virtues, how much fuller henceforth."

    Complete online text here:
    https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/liudprand1.asp


     
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  16. galba68

    galba68 Well-Known Member

    Constantine XI Palaiologos last speech:
     
  17. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    @galba68 there is a Greek legend that since the body of Constantine XI was never found that one day he will return and free the Greeks from the dominion of the Turks...and that an unknown marble statue of the emperor will come alive and lead them to victory.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    Yeah, agreed, but not really all that important imo. To use just three examples, Germany is not a name Germans gave themselves (they call themselves Deutscher which is an old form of the word for folk or people). We associate the whole of the country with just one of their tribes, Germania. The Spanish and French, by the way, refer to them by another, the Allemands.

    Similarly, South Americans often refer to us as Yankees (with and without pejorative intent) and are blissfully unaware of the Mason-Dixie line or any of the cultural nuances the word carries here.

    Japan and Japanese are names of uncertain etymology, probably an onomatopoeic corruption. The Japanese call themselves Nihon and their country Nippon. The Chinese call themselves Zhong Nuo (not sure of spelling).

    There have to be a ton more of these examples. Identities and place names change to meet the needs of the speaker. So unless somehow this show takes the world by storm I don't see the term Byzantine being replaced by "Romans" any more than I expect to see newscasters talking about the Deutscher, the Nihonese and the Zhongnuos!

    Rasiel
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  19. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Oh cripes, get over it. The Eastern Empire is Byzantium......You placated?
     
  20. Caesar_Augustus

    Caesar_Augustus Well-Known Member

    I wish there would be a TV series about the Roman defense from the 7th century wars of conquest by the Persians and Arabs all the way to their resurgence. Maybe ending at the death of Basil II. That would be an epic TV series.
     
  21. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I watched episode I last night. The battle scenes are amazing, very realistic, loved it. Better then watching the "Super Bowl" game. These epics show well on a 70" screen!
     
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