The Official U.S. Coin Hoard Thread

BiNION HOARD — Likely skimmed off a casino take.

 

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From one of the European bank hoards of US gold coins.

 

That would be the Walter Samaszko hoard, right ?

2012 or 2013.

How many chapters/pages are in that book talking about Double Eagle (Saint OR Liberty DEs) hoards ?

 

Interesting tidbit about the Samaszko Hoard, the 2012 hoard found in a Carson City, Nevada recluses home after he died.

There were about 1,200 Saint-Gaudens DEs and about 300 Eagles found in the hoard. Most were common dates or in worn condition so that they sold for just over spot bullion. Total hoard of coins was just over $7 million I believe.

A worthy successor to the Redfield Hoard !

Haven't been able to track down any actual sales with the special NGC label yet.

 

Interesting! You haven't been able to locate any actual sales, but know: "they sold for just over spot bullion."

Hmmm! When you locate these Double Eagles selling "for just over spot" as you appear to be only an observer, please PM.

I'm a buyer who isn't observing the same, only that other observers are also seeing, without any support.

I offer to deliver at <80% of average sold eBay for same, but am told they want to handle/inspect them before buying.

I trust postings, but occasionally observe improperly, and verify before buying.

Images are sufficient for me, as I try to observe every D.E. posted for sale on the internet.

LOL! JMHO!!

 

I read some of the Carson City papers at that time. They said the coins were being appraised by reputable dealers and would sell for 105-110% of the gold price.

Apparently, no rare or scarce coins among them, just common dates...or just very worn reducing the value for the semi-rares.

Not sure what you are saying here, but I haven't been able to track down any "Nevada Recluse" sales on a few platforms at this time.

 

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I would think that John Albanese @ CAC would have some interesting stories to tell about Saint and Morgan hoards over the decades.

 

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: I thought a year-by-year rundown of the various Saint hoards might be of interest. Most of this information is from Roger Burdette's excellent book on Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles but also includes snippetts I've collected over the years from various sources. Down the line, I'll probably put it into a nice Word or PDF document if anybody wants it, with more details and commentary than these summaries.

I'll do them a few at a time, unless there's so much information that a sole entry is best.

Here's the MCMVII 1907 HR, 1907, and 1908-D Short Ray No Motto:

MCMVII High Relief: The actor Adolphe Menjou supposedly had 250 High Relief coins. A hard-money believer, he told many friends he had lots of gold squirreled away in various SDBs thoughout LA and California in the 1930's and 1940's. He died in 1963 and his coins were sold off in auctions up to the 1970's but I could not find any articles or public mentions of any sizeable 1907 HR stache at that time.

1907: 95% of the mintage found its way to overseas vaults. Most went to Europe where they exhibited marks and abrasions consistent with handling during counting, stacking and re-bagging operations. About 35% may have gone to Central and South American countries where the coins remained in their original bags and were subject to much less moving, bag marks, etc. Survivors from these pieces are the primary source of high-grade examples of this date.

1908-D Short Ray No Motto: No large hoards have been found. Most of the pieces came from European central banks looted by Germany during World War II and eventually stored in the Kaiseroda potassium mine near the village of Merkers. It is probable that most 1908-D SR NM coins came from here.

 

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: More hoard tidbits for the next 3 coins in the series.

1908-D Type 3 / Long Rays, With Motto: Several hundred coins for this particular type came from Central America in 1983. The Manfra, Tordella, and Brookes Hoard (1983) is probably the largest gold coin hoard ever found. Most of the 47,000 coins consisted of U.S. Double Eagles, mostly Saints, but many Liberty Heads, too. The rest (<1,000) were smaller denomination gold coins.

Discovered in Central America -- El Salvador -- more than 90% of the coins were uncirculated. Thousands graded MS64, MS65, and even higher.

There were over 100 MS64, MS65, and MS66 specimens for this particular 1908-D WM LR. Subsequently other uncirculated examples of the 1908-D WM including many choice specimens, were located in Europe and sold in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Because of this increased supply, as many as 250-300 Gem Mints are now known of this previously impossible-to-find issue, although no more than a few, perhaps 12-15 at most, are Superb Gems (MS-67 and up).

1908-D No-Motto: The same MTB 1983 El Salvador Hoard contained many uncirculated examples of the 1908-D No Motto, many of them grading choice to gem uncirculated with some superb MS66. Before the hoard, the 1908-D NM was very scarce in high grades.

1908 No-Motto: The famous "Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard" was comprised of 19,900 coins from Central or South American. The hoard's Saint DEs had been kept in sealed bags since 1917. These bags had been temporarily stored in the vault of a Wells Fargo Bank, to which the hoard owes its name.

The 1908 No-Motto Saints from the "Wells Fargo Hoard" are of nearly uniform high quality, most grading out in the MS65 to MS67 range when they were submitted to the major certification services. Even more significantly, the hoard contained 10 MS-69s, 101 MS-68's, and over 1,000 MS-67's.

There's more details to the story, but Ron Gillio has never given specifics on the nature of the hoard: who owned the coins, which country they came from, bank or private investor or military personnel or govt agency, etc. It's understandable why he would remain quiet when the coins came out in the late-1990's; you would hope he would not be as constrained 25 years later.

 

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: More hoard factoids for the next 3 coins in the series.

1909: A few hundred pieces found in the early-1980’s by MTB, mostly MS 60-63 and AU’s. Prior to the early-1990's, when a fairly large hoard of uncirculated examples was discovered in Europe, the 1909 was considered to be a very scarce issue in any grade and a rare one in choice uncirculated condition or better. The hoard changed all that, however, and now the 1909 is strictly a condition rarity.

The 1909 Saint-Gaudens double eagle is an issue that has never been fully appreciated as a difficult to locate coin in high mint state grades. This could be due, in part, to the relative availability of lower level uncirculated examples in the MS60 to MS63 range. A small hoard of a few hundred pieces was located by Manfra, Tordella and Brookes in the early 1980’s, and this made lower uncirculated grade coins available. However, choice and gem quality pieces remain very elusive.

1909/8: Rare up to the 1960’s before Paul Wittlin finds (buyer for James Kelly and then Paramount International Coin Corp) via Paris and Swiss banks. Other hoards found later.

1909-D: 1983 MTB El Salvador Hoard; 49,000 coins. 2 bags of 500 coins came back to U.S. from Central America and also from Europe. Another 2 or 3 bags from Europe. MTB and Akers no more info following Hurricane Sandy and Akers' passing.

Akers: “When Gerald Bauman of Manfra, Tordella and Brookes called me one day in 1983 to tell me about the incredible hoard of U.S. double eagles they had just acquired from Central America, he said they had large quantities of scarce, beautiful, original high quality Liberty Heads (1901-S, 1902-S, and 1905-S among others), and also a great many incredible quality Saints including such dates as 1909-S, 1910-S, 1911-S, 1914-S, 1915-S, and 1916-S. Obviously, I was impressed and interested in seeing them and purchasing as many as I could. But then Bauman let the hammer drop and said the hoard also included hundreds of seldom, if ever seen, choice uncirculated and even better examples of the 1908-D No Motto, 1908-D With Motto, 1909-D and 1922-S. Needless to say, I could not get to New York City fast enough and it turned out that everything Bauman had said about the coins was absolutely true, perhaps even understated.

After spending an entire afternoon looking at representative samples of each issue, we discussed the terms under which I could buy the coins I wanted. My greatest interest was in the four rarest issues, including the 1909-D, and Bauman said that I could pick out what I wanted on an individual basis if I were willing to pay a substantial premium price and would take a minimum guaranteed quantity of each issue. After seeing the quality of the coins it was clear this was a reasonable request on Bauman’s part and an easy decision on mine to agree.

I still rank this as one of my greatest thrills in the coin business, both for myself person-ally and for the many collectors to whom I sold the coins. The 1909-D and 1922-S were the real prizes of the hoard and it is not hyperbole to note that virtually all of the choice, very choice and gem uncirculated examples of both of these issues that are available to collectors today came from the Central American hoard.

Before discovery of this hoard in 1983, the 1909-D was considered rarer than either 1908-S, or 1913-S. Most of the several hundred hoard pieces were in lower uncirculated grades and had likely originated in Europe. David Akers commented,

The 1909-D has the fourth lowest mintage of the Saint-Gaudens series after the 1907 High Relief, 1908-S and 1913-S. It is actually much more rare than the High Relief or 1913-S, however, and is virtually identical in both overall rarity and condition rarity to the 1908-S. Of the fifty-five Saint-Gaudens issues, I rank the 1909-D as the 16th rarest. The 1909-D is usually found in EF or AU condition and average quality uncirculated pieces are very scarce. Choice or gem quality coins are rare and most collectors looking for a gem 1909-D have been disappointed because there just aren’t that many around.

 

Can anybody who understands re-grading and crack-outs tell me what this quote regarding the 1908 No-Motto Wells Fargo hoard is saying:

"...The present (early-2015) quantities, in excess of 260,000 authentication events, are more than seven times the Gillio/Wells Fargo hoard quantities. Although some rise due to resubmissions is expected, an increase of this magnitude, among only one date/mint, suggests thousands of new coins coming on the market from the same source. With this in mind, it is posited that the total quantity of double eagles in the original group was at approximately 150,000 pieces, possibly more."

It's probable that the 260,000 number is higher since it was referencing 2015 when the author was doing the research on Saint DEs. But use that for now.

Can someone explain to me the chain of logic that ties the "authentication events" to a figure that is almost 8x higher than number of DEs believed to be found in the WF Hoard (19,900) ?

 

I would like to get those books at some time.

I believe that the longest passage/description on the 1908 Wells Fargo Hoard is in that book (and reproduced in Roger Burdette's Saints DE book).

My understanding is that much detail on the transaction has never been told either because Gillio was sworn-to-secrecy or there are sensitive issues with some of them. Clearly, the market impact of anything (dates, quantity, etc.) have long since past.

 

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: More hoard tidbits for the next coins in the series for which I have hoard info:

1909-S: David Akers wrote of handling several hundred 1909-S hoard coins at one time, usually graded in the low-60’s, from the MTB 1983 Hoard. A typical 1909-S double eagle is well struck with good detail in most areas except the torch hand and top of the torch. Surfaces often display mint frost tinged with red-gold and this is usually associated with coins from the El Salvador Hoard discovered in 1983.

1910: A few thousand uncirculated/MS coins were found in the 1990’s via European banks Mostly MS60-63. The 1990s European bank coins were abraded from handling and transport. These were consistent with the large majority of European bank hoards from decades earlier and grade between MS60 and MS63 or occasionally MS64.

Correlation with authentication company and auction records indicates that of the total mintage for the 1910, approximately 400,000 coins were shipped to Europe in exchange payments and 64,000 were sent to Central or South America. Only a small proportion of coins ever circulated in the United States or Canada.

1910-D: Numerous uncirculated 1910-D double eagles remain from consolidated bags that resided in European banks until sometime after World War II. Could have come from the Kaiseroda Mine Hoard. Most of these grade between MS61 and MS64, though gems do occasionally appear on the market.

1910-S: A small hoard of about 100 uncirculated pieces turned up in a Swiss bank in 1981. Also a group of 1,000 coins (four mint bags) was discovered in Central America in 1983. Consequently, the 1910-S is relatively common in uncirculated condition, at least through the near-gem level of preservation. Many more were evidently returned to the United States, probably from Europe, based on the condition of the coins.

At least a few coins were acquired by collectors at the time of issue. Coin collector John M. Clapp’s acquisition notes state that he purchased his 1910-S double eagle directly from the San Francisco Mint in 1910. Others might have acquired coins in person or by mail from the mint, or from the pyx coins for those who were members of the Annual Assay Commission for 1911.

 

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: More hoard tidbits for the next coins in the series for which I have hoard info:

1911: Until a substantial hoard of uncirculated examples were discovered in Europe in the early-1990's, the 1911 was thought to be scarce in MS63 condition, and MS64 quality examples were considered moderately rare at the very least. Today, though, there are many hundreds of choice and very choice mint state 1911 double eagles available to collectors.

Most 1911 double eagles apparently were shipped to Europe although it is unlikely any were shipped until after the year of manufacture. The overwhelming majority of authenticated and graded coins fall in the low to mid-uncirculated range – generally MS-63 or below. This is consistent with Heritage auction archives with nearly seventy-percent of offerings in this same range. The small quantity of high-quality coins likely came from pieces paid out by the Philadelphia Mint cashier and one or two bags that were relatively untouched after being received out-side of the United States.

1911-D: Several thousand coins from S/C America after 1972. A few bags of Uncirculated….larger amounts of Circulated.

1911-S Along with the 1909-D found in the MTB 1983 Hoard by Akers. David Bowers said in the 1970’s a Bank of America branch in Beverly Hills had 500 coins.

Review of authentication and auction archives show that of the available mintage of 757,580 pieces, approximately 450,000 were sent to Europe and 250,000 went to South America. The transfers did not occur immediately, but were made in large shipments a few years after production (RWB).

Several hoards of 1911-S double eagles are known among the repatriated coins. David Akers’ description of finding 1911-S coins in a large group purchased by MTB in 1983 echoes that for the 1909-D. In addition, Q. David Bowers relates that in the 1970s, he received a call from a trust officer at the Bank of America on North Beverly Drive in Beverly Hills, California. The “John Estate” was being sold, and investigation revealed a cache of gold coins had been hidden in a vault for decades.

Bowers visited the bank and among the coins shown to him was a sack of 500 1911-S double eagles. According to Bowers each coin was brilliant and lustrous. He purchased the coins, plus others. When these were subsequently advertised they sold out within four hours of the time the offering appeared! In his book, Bowers also refers to July 7, 1996, correspondence with gold coin authority David Akers, who indicated that he sold 500 1911-S twenties to one of his customers. This hoard was associated with approximately 47,000 double eagles discovered in Central America (reported by some to be El Salvador) in the early 1980s (the MTB/Stacks purchase).

1912: Small hoards first appeared in Europe in the late 1960's and 1970's including a group of 40 choice examples purchased by Paramount from a source in Basel, Switzerland in 1973. Twenty or so years later, a much larger hoard of uncirculated 1912 double eagles was found in Eastern Europe.

 

I've never slabbed many of my things unless they were being sold. For example I've an 1889-s Liberty $10 in what I & a Heritage numismatist estimated to be at least an ms-63. Bought from a Philly coin shop well before stabbing.

Also a flock of high grade Bust & Seated halves. But I'm an odd ball and scared of losing things in postage.

Looking at the population reports of "interesting" late 19th century ms Liberty golds, I don't see evidence of major recent imports. Sure someone can bring in a bunch of 1904 $20's and 01-S $10's, etc.

If you can shed some light on the Liberties, I'd be very interested.

 

But I wonder how many of those coins are gold and silver, right ?

Also, the reference to tens of thousands of coins imported monthly...I think they are talking about ALL gold coins (from $20 DEs to $2.50 Quarter Eagles and maybe even $1 gold coins). Maybe even Morgan SDs, though I have never read about substantial silver hoards being kept in Europe or S/C America.

 

RTE....I'll do some research on the "W" and "F" being at the beginning and end of Wells Fargo Hoard serial numbers.

I don't know if it was just peculiar to that later grading of coins or even if they were part of the smaller-NGC subset that was graded and they crossed. PCGS had the original grading and you can see 1908 NM WF Saints in OGH holders.

 

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: We'll take it up to WW I with the next batch of hoards.....

1913: Only 500 of the 5,700 survivors today did NOT come from European banks. Beat-up coins for the most part from bag circulation among Eurobanks. Other coins likely from C. America/El Salvador came back in the 1960’s and 1970’s.

1914-S: Many of these MS60-65 coins trace their pedigrees to hoards that were released into the market during the 15 year period from 1970-1985.

1915-S: Several hoards with 1,000 or more coins have entered the market since the early 1970s, so it is not surprising that the 1915-S is plentiful in lower Mint State grades through MS64.

Analysis of authentication and auction records leads to the conclusion that most of the surviving 1915-S coins came from bank accumulations in South and possibly Central America. A whopping ninety-eight percent of all pieces, or approximately 567,000 likely were shipped south during the teens and 1920s. The overall quality of surviving coins is too high for the coins to have been involved in inter-bank transactions in Europe. Further, inventory and weight information for the double eagles recovered from the Kaiseroda mine in Merkers, Germany in 1945 point to nearly all of the coins in that hoard to be less than full weight.

1916-S: David Akers comments that several thousand 1916-S coins were dispersed from hoards that came on the market in the 1970s and 1980s. The largest of these included more than 4,000 pieces located in El Salvador by MTB. As was typical, the Central American coins were of higher quality than those from European sources and these pieces account for many of the best specimens available to collectors. Authentication data imply that about 330,000 pieces were sent to Europe.