The Official CoinTalk Grading Experiment 4

I did address it by addressing the bias from the eye appeal component.

Surfaces 40%: 65x0.4=26
Luster 20%: 67x0.2=13.4
Strike 20%: 66x0.2=13.2

= 52.6

Normalizing

= 65.75 = MS-65+

For the sake of education, how do you tell the difference from a 65 strike vs a 66 strike vs a 67 strike etc? It appears to be guesswork to get the desired number. And from multiple sources, I’ve heard that strike doesn’t play much into the grade (aka, not 20% of it) until you get to the MS-67 and above levels.

 

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No dude, you don’t get to change the rules unless you are starting your own TPG. Eye appeal is an element of market grading, period.

Strike plays a significant role in grading coins, especially for certain series like Buffalo Nickels. But if you want to reduce it to 10% or adjust it to MS65, the coin would still have a grade that would round up to MS66 or at least garner an MS65+. Either way, the coin still deserves a higher grade.

 

Figured you would go that route and completely miss the point.

From the same auction, also consecutive lots. These have the same amount of wear (VF-30 or so), same sharpness of characters, and same minimal number of rim issues. The first coin has a much nicer patina than the second one. The first sold for $850, while the second sold for $425. Again, the higher eye appeal brought a higher price, despite both being the same grade.

And since they are VF coins you can’t argue the semantics of single-point differences that moderns collectors hold near and dear. The only difference is the eye appeal and the price realized.

 

The first coin is obviously VF35 compared to the 2nd coin which is VF25.

Stop changing the subject. Uncirculated coins are graded completely differently from circulated coins where luster and eye appeal are not used and wear level in combination with strike characteristics alone determine the grade.

This is your go to dodge. You simply won’t play within the rules that are used by the TPGs and you just want to make a systemic change to the market grading system by eliminating “eye appeal” or you want to scrap market grading all together and utilize the grading methods used to grade world or ancient coins.

I’m explaining the way that the TPGs market grade coins with luster & eye appeal that is commensurate with a higher grade than the surface preservation level of the coin, and you are whining about it. You don’t have to agree with their grading standards, but you also don’t get to change it.

 

Lol

Again, you miss the point. Premium eye appeal within a grade will always bring a premium price. Inflating the grade is unnecessary and winds up hurting the market. This isn’t a radical, far-fetched concept.

 

It’s more than just strike for Buffalo nickels. The luster is very poor, and the eye appeal is not commensurate with higher grades, so it is grade-limiting, despite the quality of surface preservation.

 

I have thought about this before, but with the closed-mindedness of US collectors, if the holder does not say PCGS , NGC, or ANACS (and lesser so, ICG), then the grade opinion holds no more leverage than their toilet paper. It does not matter whose opinion is behind the slab: mine, yours, John Albanese’s, Q. David Bowers’, Larry Briggs’, Bill Fivaz’, etc. It will still be seen as garbage and will be laughed off the stage. Larry Briggs tried to get a table at one of the past ANA shows for SEGS, but he was subjected to the political maneuvering of PCGS and NGC to get him shut out by the ANA.

JA recognized this, so his company supplemented PCGS and NGC rather than replace them. No way we look at it, the US coin market is subject to the whims of PCGS’ and NGC’s influence. That’s how it will always be.

 

These days it’s coming down to the PCGS-CAC combination or nothing for a lot of collectors who spend big money. The NGC-CAC combination doesn’t cut it for them. It’s one of reasons why I am collecting politicals, British and ancient Roman coins, and tokens and medals.

 

MS-65

 

Paul, I’m pretty sure he is aware of this. We all are. Why do you feel this is important that he recognize it to you? What does that serve? Is this really something worth filling pages of arguments with?

Paul, please take a moment to look at your posts and ask yourself what you’re contributing to the forum. You’re mad because someone’s opinion is different than yours. He even said the grade he gave was his opinion and you are entitled to yours. How about agreeing to disagree. Let’s move on and stop making mountains out of molehills. These kinds of ridiculous fights are what make me want to stay out of the US coin forum.

 

Bull, this is a pure troll post. You supposedly had me on ignore, but for some reason took me off ignore and the responded by selectively editing my posts.

The “HE WAS WRONG” posts had other text in the posts and it was a factual counter to micbraun who tagged me in what I considered a ridiculous post. Not nearly as ridiculous as yours, but ridiculous nonetheless.

Both @johnmilton and @micbraun are big boys and don’t need you as their white knight.

You claim that ridiculous fights are ruining the forum, so your solution is to start one with someone who you’ve told the entire forum you have on ignore. We all know who the troll is here, if you are still unclear, go find a mirror.

 

All of us, who have some expertise in grading, can see that the TPGs are engaged in grade-flatiron. My goal has been to at least try to slow it down. If it continues at a rapid pace, we will come to the point that existed before the TPGs gained a significant place in the market. Standards will mean nothing, and the evil practice of buying in a lower grade and selling at a higher one will be in force.

Before the TPGs really got going, “numismatic investment houses” bought shiny AU coins and sold them to unsuspecting buyers as “investment grade MS-65 pieces.” The people who bought this material got bilked out of millions of dollars collectively, the Federal Trade Commission stepped in, and the coin business ended up with a big black eye, which hurt everyone.

For those who weren’t around in the 1980s, here’s an example. Some friends of my in-laws paid $3,000 for an “MS-65” 1921 Peace Dollar. Suspecting they had been cheated, they showed the piece to me. It was an AU coin that was worth about $125 at the time.

Another example. A dentist in Boston bought an “investment portfolio of coins.” He consigned them to a local bid wall, which got good prices, to salvage what he could out of the collection. The best buy he made was a 1911-D $2.50. He paid $4,300 and got back $3,200. I purchased one of the more typical examples. It was Shield Nickel in AU. I bought it for $45. He paid $1,550. I know this was true because I saw the invoices the man had gotten from the “investment house.” I don’t think that any of us would like to see this hobby go back to that period.

 

These Buffalo Nickels are a clear example of how a coin can be preserved, virtually as it left the dies, and still only grade MS-63. Some coins “were struck in MS-63” from the beginning.

The only way to combat this for those think that this is unfair would be to grade the quality of the strike. The ANA tried to do that in the back of the old ANA papers, but it never caught on. It is part of the service that NGC provides for most ancient coins, and it seems to have gained traction there. For those coins, I really like that service.

 

I came because one of my friends told me to read your contradictory posts where you claim you never said someone was wrong, but then go screaming it right after. This wasn’t me “starting it” Paul, it was me intervening and trying to end it. Enough is enough. Stop your fruitless fights with everyone. Your efforts here provide nothing of value to the forum when you act like this. It appears you are unwilling to walk away, but as you’ve seen before, I am. Good day. And yes, you’re still on ignore, and this thread only reinforces why I chose to. This thread is much more useful and interesting sans your comments.

 

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that the TPGs have not had a positive impact in our hobby. I still see the practices you mention at shows: sell a cleaned AU at an MS-63 or an MS-63 as an MS-66, etc. And the money they want for these overgraded coins is outrageous.

 

I’m obviously not on ignore if you are responding to my posts, making you a LIAR!

Are you a moderator? If not, it isn’t your job to intervene to change member conduct. Furthermore, none of my posts violated any forum rules.

With regards to my “HE WAS WRONG” posts, it was done repeatedly to show @micbraun to mind his own business as well, as he is also not a moderator. Throughout the thread, I very clearly stated that @johnmilton has the right to his opinion, but regarding his expectation that his opinion match that of the TPG, he was WRONG! Then your little buddy took issue with my post and called me out for merely stating the fact that @johnmilton was factually wrong, so I responded in kind by explaining in detail how wrong @johnmilton really was during this thread.

Now what is your contribution to this thread? You are the white knight for your friend who can’t defend himself and unblock me so that you can read my posts with the sole purpose of starting a fight with someone you have a history of trolling.

Let’s be clear, I’m not about to be lectured about forum etiquette or forum value by a guy who trolls so many people and fights with so many people that he needs his friends to tell him when to don his cape and come save the day.

 

Speak for yourself. I actually prefer NGC coins, as some of the most beautiful and accurately graded coins are in NGC holders. With your punitive grading standards, you clearly have an axe to grind, and I am sure the issue isn’t NGC.

 

I think he’s commenting on how the focus is on the holder/sticker instead of the coins themselves.

 

Yes, I realize that. I think his grading standards are absurd, and that he has a personal beef with TPGs in general. Must have made a few bad deals, and instead of blaming himself, he blames the TPG. We have all had bad deals, and hopefully learn that the problem rests with OURSELVES, not a third party.

 

Who do you blame for this? IMO, the obvious scapegoat would be Legend.