The Official CoinTalk Grading Experiment 4

I went 65 based on cleaner fields than most 63-64 coins, and more chatter and lack of luster vis-a-vis 66 coins. But I don't like it

 

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I'd definitely pay MS65 money for it, John.... because I grade it MS66.

 

Luster grazes are not the same as bag marks and don’t affect the grade in the same way. Furthermore, the lighting and photography are making the luster grazes appear much worse than they really are based upon the appearance of the slab photo.

This coin is an MS66 all day long, and a strong one in my opinion. As far as the assigned grade, since when does Heritage supply beauty shots for coins worth less than $1K which is what an 1885-S MS64 is worth? The very fact that this coin has oversized photos indicates that it is graded at least MS66.

 

I voted 66.
Most of the obverse cheek discoloration appears to be toning, not contact marks or abrasion. Other than that it is well struck with attractive luster and a touch of color. I will be surprised if PCGS graded it lower.

 

See.......experience with the auction house helps.

If the obverse is 64, and the reverse is 66/67,, would they not grade it higher than 64 ??

 

Okay, you guys buy it. That's easy. The cruch time comes when you get ready to sell it. I've been at this for 60 years, and I been beaten on the head, when I was much younger, to learn the game.

Unless you can find a bigger fool at the auction house, can afford to eat the fees, and still come out on top, you'll be at the mercy of the dealers who buy it. They will pull out their Blue Sheet, if it really is graded MS-65 or 66, and start taking off 20 to 30 percent from there.

You guys are drinking the slab grade Kool Aid on this one.

 

The short answer is no, unless grade-flation is applied. A subpar obverse does not get boosted to a grade it does not deserve by a very nice reverse. In this case the reverse is not that outstanding. You have a shiny area on the eagle's breast feathers from a glancing scrape. The reverse is consistent with an MS-64+.

You might get a break if you have a super obverse and a so-so reverse, but it does not work the other way around.

 

We are just trying to grade from a picture. I would pass on this one, regardless of the grade on the slab. Perhaps in hand I might change my mind???
I know i don't have tons of experience, but there is a big discrepancy between the grades chosen by those I know have more experience than me, so i don't feel bad at all.

 

Compare it with this one I pulled off the Heritage Auction site. I would not grade this coin from the photos (probably scans) that show the total slab. The close-ups are what count. Why do you think the pros use a 10X glass when they are buying coins?

 

Some good discussions on this one!

Here are the results: we had 49 guesses with an average of 64.5.... 1.5 points under the 66 that PCGS gave it.

In my opinion, the strike and eye appeal are clearly gem quality. The luster appears strong. I don't think anyone is really arguing that.

What I'm seeing from these pictures are very minor luster breaks. There are a couple of contact marks, but most of the disturbance on the cheek looks like very light grazes. The fields are nearly flawless, especially on the reverse. The reverse appears to be a 67 all day long. You might argue that the obverse is a weak 66, but overall I think this coin absolutely earns its 66 grade.

I will also add.... while searching for an accurately graded Morgan for this thread, there were a *lot* of 66's that had a lot more contact marks than this.

 

Wow.
Thanks for your time, and effort with these threads.

 

I disagree. I think the TPG's disagree, as well. I agree that the obverse carries significantly more weight (right or wrong, it does). However, a 64 obverse and a 67 reverse could easily (and, in my opinion, accurately grade 65). An extremely strong reverse can bump up a weak obverse.

 

@johnmilton I know it hurts to be wrong, but you don't need to throw mud at us for disagreeing with you. I suspect you'd change your mind if you saw it in hand, but I'm just guessing.

 

Let's just say that based on the available photos, I don't feel bad about my guess of 65. Of course, the coin is the coin, not a photo, so I may feel differently with it in my hand under a light.

 

They use a 10x glass when they're suspicious or looking at varieties, otherwise it's less (or even no) magnification.

 

The Heritage glamour shots are not good for grading. Actually, they're just plain not good. Luster and fine surface detail are totally hidden, and contrast is brought out. This enhanced the splotches that appear very minor on the slab shot, which no doubt influenced some people. As the coin is in a recent holder, I wonder why the submitter didn't have PCGS dip it. The bidders on this coin probably saw it in hand, but the online bids would have been much stronger without the glamour shot showing the splotches (or without the glamour shot, period).

 

The closeups on the coin you have selected are deceptive. You can plainly see luster grazes both on the devices and in the fields on the slab shot. For example, look at the graze to the left of the nose in the field and the vertical graze located underneath the back of the eye. In the slab shot, they are dark and obvious. In the oversized photos, they seem to disappear, but if you look closely, they are still there, just white in color.

In the OP coin, the lighting set up accentuated the luster grazes, in your example, it hid them. But make no mistake, both coins have luster grazes and both coins are deserving of their assigned grades.

 

You’re just a sore loser, because your grade wasn’t accurate. You say, you have been at this for 60 years. If that is the case, you should be able to identify a gem grade Morgan accurately. You did not succeed in doing so. To me, as a very longtime Morgan collector, I actually thought the grade of 65+ was conservative. I voted 66, and think given the surface preservation, luster, and eye appeal, it was a 66 Morgan to me. I own numerous 66 Morgans, and this is a solid gem grade Morgan.

 

To be fair, @johnmilton posted before the reveal.

 

That doesn’t make him right.