The obligatory EID MAR thread for March 15

..i like that song..i've listened to it several times in the last few weeks..

 

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A day late, a denarius short...

 

Maybe not in the here and now what with the Corona virus. One stab at a time!

 

@rrdenarius
"I bought a coin sold as an "ancient" counterfeit of an EID-MAR. It does not match any of the known dies -> it was not produced by Brutus. Could it be 2000 years old? That is harder to tell, at best maybe. I purchased the coin from a reputable dealer who bought it from an established auction house and it has a provenance back to 1947. "

It is a modern Bulgarian fake from modern hand cut dies and maybe 10 years old or less. The pedigree is as fake as the coin !
Do you have more information about the pedigree?
The coin is obviously modern, the style and the very bad altering gives it away, they applied cuts at the edge and artificial wear to distract but it is condemning and not convincing.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Denarius-BRUTUS-42BC-SILBER/133492458610?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20170511121231&meid=e54036d1deee46f3a6412be3221eec1d&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&mehot=none&sd=133492458610&itm=133492458610&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:e4192e10-dda1-11ea-bea8-74dbd1808523|parentrq:e9779e131730ad4cf479bdecfffff15a|iid:1&autorefresh=true

Same seller Gordian Africanus fake from modern dies

https://www.ebay.de/itm/DENARIUS-GO...461221?hash=item1f14c54ea5:g:Q1sAAOSwGYNfNTyZ

His Otho and Vespasian are cast fakes all others are Bulgarian fakes from modern dies, most of them are already published at forgerynetwork or fake reports.

 

Looks like you found a die match, thanks..... I think. The die may be a bit older than 10 years.
I was aware the coin was is not from a known EID-MAR die. The only question I had was when was it produced?
The seller offered his opinion -

It is thought to be a contemporary forgery ie., at the time of Brutus. The coin was definitely a struck coin and not cast and has the weight and silver composition of other military pieces of the time of Brutus.... David Sear said the following: 'The style of the portrait is certainly curious and seems to differ markedly from that of other published specimens. The piece definitely looks ancient, but I wonder whether it might be some type of 'contemporary forgery' struck unofficially in Imperatorial times in imitation of the regular issue. ​

The seller said the coin was bought some time ago.

Ex Dr. Adrian Carr Collection and purchased in 2001.

https://www.noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=371117 ​

A friend of mine checked the metal of the coin and said the %gold is consistent with an ancient coin. I spoke with Dr Carr on the phone. He said he did buy the coin in 2001. I attempted to contact David Sear about the coin and had no response.

I think about the same as I did a couple of years ago, I will never own a good pedigree EID-MAR. This is about as close as I will come.

 

There is no prove that the coin existed before 2001, except the word of the consignor (previous seller).
David Sear will most likely change his mind if he will be notified concerning the new information that a not altered pressed die match is offered by a notorious fake seller together with other fakes some published fakes with same style and fabric from a Bulgarian workshop.

So against authenticity:

1. die match for sale by a notorious fake seller
2. the die match looks pressed
3. the altering on your fake does not look convincing and was applied to distract form awful style
4. Pedigree goes in best case back to 2001, but is possibly much junger
5. The style and fabric (pressed) of your coin is fitting to a modern Bulgarian artist and fake workshop but not to any known authentic coin from this issue or time


His Julius Caesar is a modern replica

https://www.ebay.de/itm/DENARIUS-JU...451468?hash=item1f14c5288c:g:TKMAAOSwj9ZfNTa0

https://www.etsy.com/de/listing/852116559/ar-roman-imperatorial-denarius-museum?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=elephant+caesar&ref=sc_gallery-1-2&plkey=3cb4618dc6b30ec810eb88b8c803c07d768b690a:852116559&frs=1

Gordian

https://www.ebay.de/itm/DENARIUS-GO...461221?hash=item1f14c54ea5:g:Q1sAAOSwGYNfNTyZ

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=g1cMWulSOl4=


Vespasian Cast

https://www.ebay.de/itm/DENARIUS-VE...459971?hash=item1f14c549c3:g:75MAAOSw2WBfNTuq

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=Fjriws/4YGw=


"%gold is consistent with an ancient coin"

So what?

You can check different silver coins and silver items from different times and countries and you will see that some of them will have "%gold is consistent with an ancient coin", too

And if you want to say that no forger would melt an ancient coin (run down Denarii cost maybe 5-10 Euro) to creat a 5 Dollar fake, that will have an identical alloy with an ancient coin, then you are right but whatever he or she has melted the gold level seemed to be consistent with an ancient coin.
I assume that this is true although I do not know the Gold percentage to verify this.

An XRF analyzer result of your coin and ancient denarii form different time and mints and modern silver coins from different mints and times would be more interesting, it should look like this. And even if your coin would have right alloy as said before you can melt down an authentic but very cheap run down Denari (and cast a planchet) and your alloy will be the alloy of an authentic ancient coin.

The 2 XRF results are from 2 Bronze objects found this pictures in internet.^^

 

Are these 2 bronzes you posted fakes?

I assume a forger would melt ancient coins to make a high quality expensive coins otherwise why would he melt a low quality coin to make another low quality coin? That does not make any sense. The coin posted here is badly damaged and worth as much as any other low quality denarii, so I can't imagine why would someone melted another ancient coin to make this one

 

"Are these 2 bronzes you posted fakes?"

No they are from modern Bronze, but they are not from coins or fakes but are related to fakes!

I wanted to show with this screen of XRF how a result generally looks like! Modern and ancient coins can consist of different metals and generally they have different metal composition.
The alloy compostion, is interesting, are there elements or metals which can not be found in ancient alloys ?
And the amount of the different metals and elements in the alloy in %.

The % value of Gold in the alloy is not proving anything and so meaning and worthless. One value alone means nothing.

An XFR result showing the alloy composition in % with all metals and other elements in the alloy of the coin this would be interesting because then we could tell if the alloy composition is about identical with alloy composition of ancient or modern coins by comparing.

If the alloy is ok, the coin an be either fake or authentic.
Fake if they melted an very cheap ancient coin for producing the planchet of the fake.
Or authentic, if the alloy is ok because it the coin was minted in ancient times and so has correct alloy omposition.

The Brutus fake was sold at nobel for "SOLD $800" + fees, for this you can melt an ancient Denarius, which is very corroded and worn and so pretty much worthless.

 

for an 800$ coin yes I can see that but for anything under 400 I cant see why they would do that because even a modest worn Prius denarii is being sold for 100$ for example this coin :



But even assuming they melted the ancient coin to make this fake EID MAR why they did not make a good quality one so they could have earned more money. Why such a poor quality coin?? All this trouble for nothing?

 

It's hard to understand what's happening in a counterfeiter's brain when you're not one yourself. The famous painting forger Wolfgang Beltracchi explained once in an interview that his main motivation was not the greed. "To create a work, to deceive the best experts and to see it end up at auction without anyone realizing it except myself, it is the height of ecstasy for a forger". That's probably why in 2003-2004 there were a lot of fake common bronze coins of Constantine I and II, Licinius I and II, Constans, Constantius I and II, Valens, in circulation...available for only a few bucks.

 

I agree with that but I'm sure none of those common bronzes were used by melting another common bronze loool its just stupid to do so no matter how much we try to justify. if the guy has a genuine LRB why would he melt that and make another LRB and then sell it for the same value??

 

"But even assuming they melted the ancient coin to make this fake EID MAR why they did not make a good quality one so they could have earned more money. Why such a poor quality coin?? All this trouble for nothing?"

They did this altering with the intention to make the fake more deceptive by distracting from problems of the coin like the style and the more expensive the coin the more carefully it will be examined.
The die match fake on ebay is not so convincing because not altered and still in mint state condition it would be so much much much more expensive if authentic and so checked more carefully and if checking the coin more carefully they would hopefully realize that it is an obvious fake if they are not compeltely incompetent.

The Antious Pius is a very low quality coin and imho worth maybe 10 Dollar, is the seller on ebay highratinglowprice, because the price is rediculous high ?

You have to consider that the prices for ancient coins have increased very very much in the past 20 years, I have nicer and better Denari as the Antonius Pius for which I paid less than 20 years ago about 10 DM it would be today today about 5 Dollar but money was worth more back then and nice LRB for 0,50 Pfennige which would be today 0,25 Cent and yes money was worth more back then but even if we consider inflation since then it was very very cheap.

The fake Brutus was made several years ago when the prices for ancient coins were lower but the prices for Bruts coins were always very high. Bulgarian forgers do not buy coins from highratinglowprice on ebay for reidiculous high prices, why should they if they can buy if they want authentic coins very cheap in Bulgaria at local markets? You can and many do buying such ancient coins at local markets in Bulgaria, Turkey, Sicily and then transporting and reselling them with profit in Germany etc. Even after sorting out fakes and after expenses like travel costs they earn pretty good money. If you buy directly from looters the price should be for run down coins about material value.

But I doubt that the alloy of the Brutus fake is identical with that on ancient Denari, there is no need to melt an ancient coin even if they can buy rund down specimens for a little bit more than melt value, because these fakes are produced for tourists and ebay and not made to fool experts who will recoginze them as fakes even without the use of XFR. And if you know the correct alloy for authentic ancient coins (you can find articles in internet) you can mix a correct alloy for ancient coins yourself without melting ancient coins. But why, there is no need to do this for low quality fakes, it is time consuming and time is money.

We only know that the Gold value of the modern Brutus fake is possibly in the rage as it is on ancient coins, but this only means that the silver used for it was not so fine refined as it is can be found on some modern Silver coins and objects but you should be able to find enough NOT ANCIENT SILVER OBJECTS with a similar GOLD % as the Brutus coin because the silver was not always so fine refined in all countries within the last centuries and for some objects like today other objects were melted in "parting work" where precious metals are parted and used for new Silver objects. nd if you know the correct alloy for authentic ancient coins you can mix this alloy yourself even without melting ancient coins. And XRF results are not always 100% accurate and there can be a tolerance of some %

 

well if Bulgarian have genuine low quality Roman coin why not selling them online same way as the Prius coin I posted ? the coin I posted is in vcoins now . I cant find any denarii less than 60 dollars no matter how bad condition is. In Bulgaria digging and finding genuine coin is a big crime so I doubt they have access to such huge amounts of ancient coins for all the fakes they making. again they might use occasionally for high quality and expensive fakes that worth 1000+ but for less than that I doubt simply because they don't have that many ancient coins in their hands due to government restriction on digging and jail time for it. Mixing 0.5% gold in silver is very tough for a coin that weights less than 4 grams. If possible will take them lots if try and error or would need sophisticated tools which adds to the cost so again I doubt they do this option as well due to cost. As for the posted EID MAR , if they went to this length of melting an ancient coin for EID MAR, why they did not use the same exact die to match the style and strike it instead of cast? then it would be virtually impossible to detect that and they could earn 100s thousands? Making an identical die is easy and striking is also easy to do. My point is if they really made this coin to deceive experts by melting an ancient coin, why they miss the basics of using the exact die match and striking it as ancients did??

 

"well if Bulgarian have genuine low quality Roman coin why not selling them online same way as the Prius coin I posted ?"

Because the looted coins have to be smuggled out of country and then being whitewashed. Till they arrive at retail markets in Western Europe or USA they went through many hands and each time the go through a new hand the price is increasing !!!!!!

"I cant find any denarii less than 60 dollars no matter how bad condition is."

Dealers have to live too, so they buy for example a lot or coins from an auction house and some double the price, this is not market value for me. Some are do more then doubling the price and if they are patient enough they might find a collectore who is stupid enough to pay so much.

The % amount Gold of the Brutus is not any evidence that the coin is authentic.
As said before, other not ancient silver items can have the same amount of Gold as the Brutus and could be melted down for planchet or they mixed the alloy that it fits to ancient silver or they melted a very cheap ancient silver coin for it.


What speaks for authenticity of the Brutus fake ?
Nothing, Gold amount does not prove anything!


Against authenticity:
Most likely pressed die match for sale by fake seller
The style and fabric of the die match fits almost 100 % to a Bulgarian forger and workshop
No proven authentic coins from this dies known and no die links to authentic coins
Pedigree is fake
etc.