Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
The mystery of AMANDUS
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="Ocatarinetabellatchitchix, post: 4591522, member: 99554"]Eutropius IX, 21 : <i>He thus became master of the Roman empire; and when the peasants in Gaul made an insurrection, giving their faction the name of Bagaudae, and having for leaders <b>Amandus</b> and Aelianus, he despatched Maximian Herculius, with the authority of Caesar, to suppress them. Maximian, in a few battles of little importance, subdued the rustic multitude, and restored peace to Gaul.</i></p><p><br /></p><p>285 AD</p><p>The crisis of the third century in the Roman Empire is almost over. But not entirely. In Gaul, a group of peasants called the <i>bagaudae</i> rebelled against the grinding taxation and garnishing of their lands, harvests and manpower by the predatory agents of the late Roman state. After the death of the emperor Carinus, forty-nine cities revolt, including Paris, Sens, Troyes, Auxerre and Meaux. A man named <b>Amandus</b> took the head of this small army (with the help of Aelianus). After having been given the title of Emperor, he carried desolation everywhere, ravaging the countryside, burning the villages and ransoming the cities. The emperor Diocletian sent against them Maximianus Herculius who weakened him by several small fights, then forced him to entrench themselves in a sort of citadel near Paris. Maximianus took control of this fortress, destroyed it , and killed all who were there. <b>Amandus</b> perished during this war.</p><p><br /></p><p>The big question is: did <b>Amandus</b> ever minted coins bearing his name ? David Woods wrote an interesting paper on this usurper in 2001, and gave this opinion :"<i>the two alleged specimens of his coinage that have survived into the modern age have been widely condemned as Renaissance forgerie". </i>Finally his conclusion was <i>"that he did not in fact issue coinage". </i>Woods was talking about 2 coins, but it seems that 6 specimens exist. I will let you judge by yourself about the authenticity of the rare coins of <b>Amandus </b>(I could only find pictures of two of them); the first one is the Bibliothèque Nationale de France, Paris. It is considered by almost all expert as a Middle Ages fake. Here it is :</p><p>IMP CC AMANDVS PF AVG / GENIO POPULI ROMANI</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1136947[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>The second one is from the collection of Sir Arthur Evans. It is now owned by the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford : IMP S AMANDVS PF AVG / SALVS AVG</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1136948[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>The other examples are owned by private collectors : one was once in the Pembroke Collection (when the collection was sold in 1848, the coin #1445 was described as "tooled and false) <a href="https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082505672&view=1up&seq=11" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082505672&view=1up&seq=11" rel="nofollow">https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082505672&view=1up&seq=11</a>, another one from the Turin Royal Collection and rumours says that Bank Leu AG have one in Zurich. Now let's go back in time and try to discover what famous numismatists have to say about <b>Amandus</b>' coinage.</p><p>The first expert who wrote about an <b>Amandus</b> example is Anselmo Banduri in <span style="color: #ff0000">1718</span> ( <i>Numismata Imperatorum Romanorum).</i>He described a radiate head with the obverse legend IMP CC AMANDVS PF AVG with reverse SPES PA IV P III. He also talked about another specimen confirmed by Mezzabarbas with the legend IMP C CN SAL AMANDVS PF AVG.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1136950[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>In <span style="color: #ff0000">1791</span> and <span style="color: #ff0000">1796</span>, both Tanini and Eckhel (<i>Doctrina Numorum Veterum) </i>agreed about the first coin of Banduri and add another one from the Pembroke collection with the reverse VENVS AVG.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1136954[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1136955[/ATTACH]</p><p>Eckhel 1796</p><p><br /></p><p>But there was a change of opinion in the numismatic community from <span style="color: #ff0000">1815</span>. Mionnet (<i>Description de Médailles Antiques Grecques et Romaines) </i>stated that <b>Amandus</b>' coin should "<i>be strongly suspected</i>".</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1136956[/ATTACH]</p><p>Mionnet 1815</p><p><br /></p><p>J.Y.Akerman (<i>A descriptive catalogue of Rare and Unedited Roman Coins) </i>also gave his point of view about these coins in <span style="color: #ff0000">1834</span> saying that "<i>their authenticity is doubted</i>".</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1136957[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>More recently, around <span style="color: #ff0000">1930</span>, Percy Webb examined the antoninianus owned by the Ashmolean Museum and was hesitant to dismiss it from the <i>Roman Imperial Coinage </i>; he admitted the possibility that it was genuine. So what do you think about <b>Amandus' </b>coinage ? Before you give your opinion, please remember that a similar discussion perhaps happened 20 years ago, but about the Domitian II only known coin. Do you remember the end of the story ? <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/15-years-ago-the-resurrection-of-an-emperor.332210/" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/15-years-ago-the-resurrection-of-an-emperor.332210/">https://www.cointalk.com/threads/15-years-ago-the-resurrection-of-an-emperor.332210/</a></p><p>It is very possible that a metal detectorist ( hopefully our own [USER=87454]@galba68[/USER] ) will soon discover a die match coin of one of the suspected example discussed above... In the meantime, let me show you two wonderful genuine <b>Amandus</b> examples sold on ebay not so long ago. And please post your coins of Maximianus Herculius, Diocletian or even better, <b>Amandus</b> the Gallic Usurper !</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1136958[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1136959[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Ocatarinetabellatchitchix, post: 4591522, member: 99554"]Eutropius IX, 21 : [I]He thus became master of the Roman empire; and when the peasants in Gaul made an insurrection, giving their faction the name of Bagaudae, and having for leaders [B]Amandus[/B] and Aelianus, he despatched Maximian Herculius, with the authority of Caesar, to suppress them. Maximian, in a few battles of little importance, subdued the rustic multitude, and restored peace to Gaul.[/I] 285 AD The crisis of the third century in the Roman Empire is almost over. But not entirely. In Gaul, a group of peasants called the [I]bagaudae[/I] rebelled against the grinding taxation and garnishing of their lands, harvests and manpower by the predatory agents of the late Roman state. After the death of the emperor Carinus, forty-nine cities revolt, including Paris, Sens, Troyes, Auxerre and Meaux. A man named [B]Amandus[/B] took the head of this small army (with the help of Aelianus). After having been given the title of Emperor, he carried desolation everywhere, ravaging the countryside, burning the villages and ransoming the cities. The emperor Diocletian sent against them Maximianus Herculius who weakened him by several small fights, then forced him to entrench themselves in a sort of citadel near Paris. Maximianus took control of this fortress, destroyed it , and killed all who were there. [B]Amandus[/B] perished during this war. The big question is: did [B]Amandus[/B] ever minted coins bearing his name ? David Woods wrote an interesting paper on this usurper in 2001, and gave this opinion :"[I]the two alleged specimens of his coinage that have survived into the modern age have been widely condemned as Renaissance forgerie". [/I]Finally his conclusion was [I]"that he did not in fact issue coinage". [/I]Woods was talking about 2 coins, but it seems that 6 specimens exist. I will let you judge by yourself about the authenticity of the rare coins of [B]Amandus [/B](I could only find pictures of two of them); the first one is the Bibliothèque Nationale de France, Paris. It is considered by almost all expert as a Middle Ages fake. Here it is : IMP CC AMANDVS PF AVG / GENIO POPULI ROMANI [ATTACH=full]1136947[/ATTACH] The second one is from the collection of Sir Arthur Evans. It is now owned by the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford : IMP S AMANDVS PF AVG / SALVS AVG [ATTACH=full]1136948[/ATTACH] The other examples are owned by private collectors : one was once in the Pembroke Collection (when the collection was sold in 1848, the coin #1445 was described as "tooled and false) [URL]https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082505672&view=1up&seq=11[/URL], another one from the Turin Royal Collection and rumours says that Bank Leu AG have one in Zurich. Now let's go back in time and try to discover what famous numismatists have to say about [B]Amandus[/B]' coinage. The first expert who wrote about an [B]Amandus[/B] example is Anselmo Banduri in [COLOR=#ff0000]1718[/COLOR] ( [I]Numismata Imperatorum Romanorum).[/I]He described a radiate head with the obverse legend IMP CC AMANDVS PF AVG with reverse SPES PA IV P III. He also talked about another specimen confirmed by Mezzabarbas with the legend IMP C CN SAL AMANDVS PF AVG. [ATTACH=full]1136950[/ATTACH] In [COLOR=#ff0000]1791[/COLOR] and [COLOR=#ff0000]1796[/COLOR], both Tanini and Eckhel ([I]Doctrina Numorum Veterum) [/I]agreed about the first coin of Banduri and add another one from the Pembroke collection with the reverse VENVS AVG. [ATTACH=full]1136954[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1136955[/ATTACH] Eckhel 1796 But there was a change of opinion in the numismatic community from [COLOR=#ff0000]1815[/COLOR]. Mionnet ([I]Description de Médailles Antiques Grecques et Romaines) [/I]stated that [B]Amandus[/B]' coin should "[I]be strongly suspected[/I]". [ATTACH=full]1136956[/ATTACH] Mionnet 1815 J.Y.Akerman ([I]A descriptive catalogue of Rare and Unedited Roman Coins) [/I]also gave his point of view about these coins in [COLOR=#ff0000]1834[/COLOR] saying that "[I]their authenticity is doubted[/I]". [ATTACH=full]1136957[/ATTACH] More recently, around [COLOR=#ff0000]1930[/COLOR], Percy Webb examined the antoninianus owned by the Ashmolean Museum and was hesitant to dismiss it from the [I]Roman Imperial Coinage [/I]; he admitted the possibility that it was genuine. So what do you think about [B]Amandus' [/B]coinage ? Before you give your opinion, please remember that a similar discussion perhaps happened 20 years ago, but about the Domitian II only known coin. Do you remember the end of the story ? [URL]https://www.cointalk.com/threads/15-years-ago-the-resurrection-of-an-emperor.332210/[/URL] It is very possible that a metal detectorist ( hopefully our own [USER=87454]@galba68[/USER] ) will soon discover a die match coin of one of the suspected example discussed above... In the meantime, let me show you two wonderful genuine [B]Amandus[/B] examples sold on ebay not so long ago. And please post your coins of Maximianus Herculius, Diocletian or even better, [B]Amandus[/B] the Gallic Usurper ! [ATTACH=full]1136958[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1136959[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
The mystery of AMANDUS
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...