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<p>[QUOTE="TypeCoin971793, post: 3426036, member: 78244"]I’m currently debating with some people who have differing ideas on how legal counterfeits are in the US. Several say that owning any counterfeit, regardless of manufacuring date between 600 BC and 2019 and intent, is illegal to own and sell. Others, like myself, say that they are legal to own and sell as long as you do not intend to deceive. The former bases their stance on what Secret Service agents say. The latter group forms their stance on the text of the laws themselves.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Here is the text of the Hobby Protection Act:</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title15-chapter48&edition=prelim" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title15-chapter48&edition=prelim" rel="nofollow">http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title15-chapter48&edition=prelim</a></p><p><br /></p><p>It opens up the discussion about counterfeit numismatic items with:</p><p><br /></p><p>“The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, <b>for</b> <b>introduction</b> <b>into</b> <b>or</b> <b>distribution</b> <b>in</b> <b>commerce</b>, or the sale in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked "copy", is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].”</p><p><br /></p><p>This clearly implies that the intent to distribute into the market/sell a counterfeit determines whether the ownership/action regarding the counterfeit numismatic items is in violation of the act.</p><p><br /></p><p>And six times it states:</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="http://uscode.house.gov/statviewer.htm?volume=87&page=687" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://uscode.house.gov/statviewer.htm?volume=87&page=687" rel="nofollow">Pub. L. 93–167, §8, Nov. 29, 1973, 87 Stat. 687</a>, provided that: "This Act [enacting this chapter] shall apply only to imitation political items and imitation numismatic items manufactured after the date of enactment of this Act [Nov. 29, 1973]."</p><p><br /></p><p>This clearly states that the requirements of the HPA (eg. COPY stamp) does not apply to pre-1973 counterfeits. That implies that pre-1973 counterfeits can be traded as-is just as post-1973 counterfeits stamped COPY can be traded. This protects contemporary counterfeits and the like.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Here is the text of US code dealing with counterfeits:</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title18/part1/chapter25&edition=prelim" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title18/part1/chapter25&edition=prelim" rel="nofollow">http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title18/part1/chapter25&edition=prelim</a></p><p><br /></p><p>Section 471:</p><p><br /></p><p>“Whoever, <b>with</b> <b>intent</b> <b>to</b> <b>defraud</b>, falsely makes, forges, counterfeits, or alters any obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined no more than $5000 under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.”</p><p><br /></p><p>Section 472:</p><p><br /></p><p>“Whoever, <b>with</b> <b>intent</b> <b>to</b> <b>defraud</b>, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or with like intent brings into the United States or keeps in possession or conceals any falsely made, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined no more than $5000 under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.”</p><p><br /></p><p>Section 473:</p><p><br /></p><p>“Whoever buys, sells, exchanges, transfers, receives, or delivers any false, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, <b>with</b> <b>the</b> <b>intent</b> <b>that</b> <b>the</b> <b>same</b> <b>be</b> <b>passed</b>, <b>published</b>, <b>or</b> <b>used</b> <b>as</b> <b>true</b> <b>and</b> <b>genuine</b>, shall be fined no more than $5000 under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.”</p><p><br /></p><p>Each of these clearly states that the intent to deceive is what is required to be in violation of these codes regarding owning/buying/selling.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>So now I open the floor to the lawyers in the house. Which interpretation of the law is correct? [USER=76194]@Sallent[/USER] [USER=22331]@imrich[/USER] [USER=71723]@V. Kurt Bellman[/USER] [USER=96749]@EyeAppealingCoins[/USER][/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="TypeCoin971793, post: 3426036, member: 78244"]I’m currently debating with some people who have differing ideas on how legal counterfeits are in the US. Several say that owning any counterfeit, regardless of manufacuring date between 600 BC and 2019 and intent, is illegal to own and sell. Others, like myself, say that they are legal to own and sell as long as you do not intend to deceive. The former bases their stance on what Secret Service agents say. The latter group forms their stance on the text of the laws themselves. Here is the text of the Hobby Protection Act: [URL='http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title15-chapter48&edition=prelim']http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title15-chapter48&edition=prelim[/URL] It opens up the discussion about counterfeit numismatic items with: “The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, [B]for[/B] [B]introduction[/B] [B]into[/B] [B]or[/B] [B]distribution[/B] [B]in[/B] [B]commerce[/B], or the sale in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked "copy", is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].” This clearly implies that the intent to distribute into the market/sell a counterfeit determines whether the ownership/action regarding the counterfeit numismatic items is in violation of the act. And six times it states: [URL='http://uscode.house.gov/statviewer.htm?volume=87&page=687']Pub. L. 93–167, §8, Nov. 29, 1973, 87 Stat. 687[/URL], provided that: "This Act [enacting this chapter] shall apply only to imitation political items and imitation numismatic items manufactured after the date of enactment of this Act [Nov. 29, 1973]." This clearly states that the requirements of the HPA (eg. COPY stamp) does not apply to pre-1973 counterfeits. That implies that pre-1973 counterfeits can be traded as-is just as post-1973 counterfeits stamped COPY can be traded. This protects contemporary counterfeits and the like. Here is the text of US code dealing with counterfeits: [url]http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title18/part1/chapter25&edition=prelim[/url] Section 471: “Whoever, [B]with[/B] [B]intent[/B] [B]to[/B] [B]defraud[/B], falsely makes, forges, counterfeits, or alters any obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined no more than $5000 under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.” Section 472: “Whoever, [B]with[/B] [B]intent[/B] [B]to[/B] [B]defraud[/B], passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or with like intent brings into the United States or keeps in possession or conceals any falsely made, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined no more than $5000 under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.” Section 473: “Whoever buys, sells, exchanges, transfers, receives, or delivers any false, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, [B]with[/B] [B]the[/B] [B]intent[/B] [B]that[/B] [B]the[/B] [B]same[/B] [B]be[/B] [B]passed[/B], [B]published[/B], [B]or[/B] [B]used[/B] [B]as[/B] [B]true[/B] [B]and[/B] [B]genuine[/B], shall be fined no more than $5000 under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.” Each of these clearly states that the intent to deceive is what is required to be in violation of these codes regarding owning/buying/selling. So now I open the floor to the lawyers in the house. Which interpretation of the law is correct? [USER=76194]@Sallent[/USER] [USER=22331]@imrich[/USER] [USER=71723]@V. Kurt Bellman[/USER] [USER=96749]@EyeAppealingCoins[/USER][/QUOTE]
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