The large bronzes of Ptolemies

So I just received my first Ptolemaic AE and by far the largest coin of my collection, 43mm 70g Ptolemy IV ! I was wondering why would they make such big coins? What would be the use for it? It seems quite impractical to have such heavy coins (I imagine several) with you to just go and buy something casually, as I suspect being a bronze coin it should not hold a huge value, but rather a face value that would not have to do anything with the metal's weight.

 

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I don’t know why they made such big coins with low values but they still did that with pennies until around a century ago. Just look at US and Canadian large cents. I think maybe they did it so people wouldn’t lose them?

 

Ptolemy lll AE Reduced Drachm
OBS: Head of Zeus Ammon
REV: Eagle facing left on thunderbolt.
Cornucopia with fillets in Left Field
ΧΡ Chrestogram between legs
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ
Sv 964
40mm 73.9gm

 

Maybe it was worth more then?
The 18th century 5 kopek from Russia is a massive 42mm and 52g, but it had solid buying power

 

Perhaps it was to do with the weight. As others have said, in more modern times there were similarly huge copper coins because people were used to silver being worth face value, but the authorities wanted to switch to copper (for various reasons, sometimes honourable, sometimes not).

In Georgian Britain, they needed to mint copper coins due to a severe shortage of small change. Silver was in short supply and in any case low denominations made of silver were very small. It was believed the face value of a coin should correspond to the value of the material it was made from, so each tuppence coin was made from two pence worth of copper (2 ounces).

George III 'Cartwheel' Twopence, 1797

Birmingham. Copper, 41mm, 56.89g (S 3776).

In Russia in the 1650s, tsar Alexis I began minting large numbers of copper kopeks to increase government revenue and help fund his wars. Since the value of the copper kopek was artificially equated to the value of the silver kopek, this led to a devaluation of the ruble and a severe financial crisis. There were riots.

Alexis I Kopek, 1654-1663

Moscow. Copper, 14x7mm, 0.56g (KG 1103).

Unsurprisingly, Peter I's copper coins were larger - his 5 kopeks in 1725 was 19.8g.

Peter I the Great 5 Kopeks, 1725

Kadashevsky Mint, Moscow. Copper, 19.8g (KM 165).

By the time of Elizabeth, they were double the size.

Elizabeth 5 Kopeks, 1759

Ekatarinburg. Copper, 41mm, 53.54g (Bit 439).

 

There was even heavier ae's that weighed c 90g + and measured c 46 mm of Ptolemy ll/lll. They must have figured hugely in bar room brawls and riot coshes where several put in a sock would be a great truncheon.

 

Silver was always scarce in Egypt, therefore bronze was a great alternative for low valued transactions and denominations. This was a win for the authorities, bronze had pure fiduciary value. Only silver tetradrachms were minted in the Ptolemaic kingdom (with very rare issues of didrachms and drachms.) These large silver denominations were easy to control, and using the Phoenician standard, the silver coins were not quickly exported since this weight standard was not used outside Egypt and Phoenicia. So the silver that was available stayed in Alexandrine territory as much as possible. Egypt therefore had a very close monetary system, both their silver as bronze.
Since there are no smaller silver denominations, the authorities had to produce these fiduciary bronze coins to fill the gap, and these can sometimes weigh ~90g (largest bronze denomination). The largest bronze denomination is actually valued as a drachm, which is in my opinion a quite high value. I am sure that a Egyptian person living in that time were hoarding silver coins and wanted to get rid of the bronze token coins as much as possible.

 

To add to what @Pavlos said the closed monetary system where only Ptolemaic coins of a unique standard were allowed to circulate was a deliberate strategic choice by the kings.

In addition to the profit potential from confiscation / re-minting, the system ensured that Cyrenaica, Phoenicia, Cyprus etc. could only trade their strategic natural resources to Egypt. Timber for shipbuilding for example. The Ptolemies saw it as a "national security" concern to maintain their supplies of timber and metals.

 

I guess that is a reason to post my Ptolemy III obol from Tyre. It's not especially big but it's definitely "sell us your cedars or else" money.


Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt. Ptolemy III Euergetes. 27mm, 11.94g. Minted circa 246-222 BCE. Bronze obol. Tyre mint. Obverse: Head of Zeus-Ammon right. Reverse: ΠTOΛEMAIOY BAΣIΛEΩΣ. Eagle holding a thunderbolt facing left. Club mint mark (for Tyre) in the left field. Svoronos 708.

 

And yet Sheshonq lla's falcon sarcophagus is huge and made of solid silver ( I have seen it in Cairo) c 880 BC

Inside there was a golden mask that attaches to a decayed cartonnage mummy case.


So with silver being scarcer than gold this must be technically more valuable than Tutankhamun's solid gold inner coffins...or not!

 

I actually prefer the Ptolemaic issues from the Levant, quite north of Alexandria.

 

I would tend to agree with those that believe that after the coinage reform of c 265 BC when the bronze drachm was introduced, that the Ptolemies did attempt to strike a bronze coinage that was rather closer in value to its actual weight. These coins are very impressive and that factor alone might have been enough for them to become acceptable. However striking these coins must have taxed the then current technology of striking coins to its limit. However it should be noted that in the main the coins are well struck, centered and are usually devoid of significant problem associated with die deterioration. Ptolemy IV ae Drachm Alexandria 218?-204 BC Obv Head of Zeus Ammon right Rv Eagle standing left wings folded on thunderbolt. Lorber CPE B 508 Svoronos 992 66.80 grms 42 mm Photo by W. Hansen

 

Another example of what @OutsiderSubtype mentioned regarding the deliberate strategy for a closed monatary system is the Pergamene kingdom. Eumenes II started to issue "cistophoric" tetradrachms (cistohphorus), these were tariffed at 3 Attic drachms, so when exporting these tetradrachms the coin loses 1 drachm of it's value. Therefore these tetradrachms were staying in the Pergamene monetary system as much as possible. A clever way to control all the silver in your lands.

 

These Egyptians were lightweights compared to the bronze coins of the Roman Republic who were circulating at the same time period.


a Dupondius Aes grave weight 450-500 gram, a Sestertius around a Kilo,
(one in the British Museum)

 

Has anyone heard the story that these large bronzes were used in the first vending machines? As I recall the story (but not the source), the coins could be rolled down a troth and open a dispenser of holy water according to the weight of the coin. Does anyone have the source for this? I do object to the idea that these were 'small change'. Most ancient coins were quite a bit of money. A small silver or large bronze 'drachm' was closer to a fifty dollar bill than to a fifty cent piece. Prices then were not like modern gas stations stating prices in tenths of a cent ($2.67 and 9/10ths here today). Who are they kidding?

 

@dougsmit

I have also heard that Heron of Alexandria invented such a "vending machine". I think if you search for his name you should be able to find sources.

I think many of his inventions were used in temples to make the temple experience more impressive.

 

There was a famous statuary group of two gods and goddesses which would magically embrace each other when the time was right.
It was because one statue was iron and the other lodestone, and they had it hooked up to some machinery underneath that allowed the magnets to snap together and wow the public.

 

The weights of the heaviest Ptolemaic bronzes (69 and 92 gm) suggest to me that these correspond to a coin “drachm” and “octobol “respectively, although this is not the conventional view. In any case these coins were still fiduciaries, i.e, they were valued at more than their intrinsic value.

92 gm is the weight of the deben (= 10 qedets) the weight standard of the New Kingdom and later.

Ross G.

 

Hero/Heron of Alexandria did invent a coin-operated vending machine for holy water, as well as a steam engine, the Aeliopile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

Here's my big, bad, bronze

PTOLEMAIC EMPIRE

EGYPT. ALEXANDRIA.

Ptolemy IV 221-205 BC AE Drachma. (75.52g, 41mm, 12h)

Obverse: Bust of Zeus Ammon right

Reverse: ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ, Eagle standing left on thunderbolt, cornucopiae in front, ΛΙ between legs

Reference: SNG Cop 199.

 

Indeed! I have some information about this in my coin document associated with my 80-drachmai Augustus AE issue from Alexandria (Emmet 1; Köln 1; RPC I 5001) because that coin is more contemporary with the inventor. Although the type is comparatively light to "biggy-sized" Ptolemaic issues, its weight of almost 16 grams would still have been sufficient to provide the needed catalyst. See the image below along with the text in blue which came from this now inactive webpage: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria2.htm

A coin was to be inserted in A and land on the receiver R causing it to fall. This action would raise the other side of the lever P to rise opening the valve and allowing water to flow out of the spout M. The coin would slide off of the receiver and the valve would close.

And better yet, for a modern-day model, see here:
https://www.smith.edu/hsc/museum/ancient_inventions/hsc18b.htm