The Giant Claw of Kashmir

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Parthicus, Nov 15, 2020.

  1. Parthicus

    Parthicus Well-Known Member

    Kashmir.jpg
    Kashmir. AE stater (21 mm, 7.23 g). Anonymous, c.570- 855 AD. Obverse: King standing facing, left hand holding scepter, right hand lowered to altar, Brahmi legend "Sri Toramana". Reverse: Goddess enthroned facing, Brahmi legend "Jaya". Mitchiner Non-Islamic 155-158. This coin: Purchased from Marc R. Breitsprecher, 2020.

    Kashmir is a mountainous region at the northern end of the Indian subcontinent. In ancient times it was an important center for Hindu and Buddhist thought. Its position means that it has been part of many different empires over time, including the Mughal, Sikh, and Afghan Durrani, as well as periods of independence. The territory is currently divided between India, Pakistan, and China, and the situation is often tense. The area was conquered by the Hephthalite king Mihiragula c.515-530 AD and passed to his successor Toramana II (c.530-560 AD). The successors of Toramana copied his coinage for several centuries, and this coin is part of that series. While the names of most of these kings, and approximate reign dates, are known, there is no way to link this coin to a specific king, so there is no point in going into detail. Besides, it wasn't the history that attracted me to this coin, but rather the unusual artistic rendering on the obverse.

    Specifically, look closely at the right hand of the king. That is one bizarre-looking, huge claw-like appendage. If you saw someone with a hand like that, you'd probably run. From photos I found of other examples of this type, that giant claw is not a standard feature of the design but seems to be just how one particular engraver interpreted the design. Even though it is not closely related to my main collecting areas, I just had to have this coin as soon as I saw it.

    And, on a completely silly note, there is a 1950s sci-fi monster movie called "The Giant Claw". It has nothing to do with Kashmir, but if you like 1950s sci-fi you might want to check it out:


    Please post your coins of Kashmir, or coins featuring bizarrely exaggerated body parts.
     
    furryfrog02, Andres2, zumbly and 13 others like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    The claw! Very interesting strike on that coin that hopefully @Spaniard would have an answer for..



    Here is a so-called 'debased' starter from the Kidarites, but it seems pretty solid...

    [​IMG]

    Kidarite of Jammu & Kashmir: Vinayaditya (late 5th century) debased AV Stater (MACW-3656)
    Obv: Formalized Kushan standing king design;
    Rev: Semi-realistic portrayal of enthroned Ardoksho;
     
  4. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Very cool coin, @Parthicus.
    ...And, Sorry for this; couldn't stop myself in time.
     
    Kentucky and Parthicus like this.
  5. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    Perhaps one day Toramana's tomb will be discovered and it will turn out that he actually had a giant deformed hand! :jawdrop:
     
    Parthicus, +VGO.DVCKS and Quant.Geek like this.
  6. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..haha...FZ rules man! :cool:
     
    Kentucky and +VGO.DVCKS like this.
  7. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    One of the best musicians (that gets to include composers --for one, in his case) who God ever made. Up there with ...well, too many people.
     
    Kentucky, Pellinore and ominus1 like this.
  8. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    ...You're Scaring me.... :<}
     
  9. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    @Parthicus ......Nice coin showing the ob legend...The softer more detailed portrayals of the king and Lakshmi are assumed to be a lifetime issue, the op reverse for example showing the arms of the goddess in comparison to my postumus issue being much more abstract..
    tor id2.jpg
    Here also is a breakdown of the legends, maybe helps?
    tor.jpg
    As to your question of the claw....I really have no idea apart from they're always the most difficult part of a body to draw?:confused:....I initially identified this depiction as flames coming up from the altar but have since changed my opinion as this mad hand is also replicated to the left hand holding the trident see below..
    tor id4.jpg
    I started researching the Toramana II coins a few years ago now (on and off), and found this blank void of three centuries, from the end of his coinage around the latter half of 6th century to a sudden reinstatement of a very similar design of coin appearing in the mid 9th century, really intriguing....As to how long his posthumous issues were minted no one seems to know but imo it wasn't for 300 years!

    A while back I put together a timeline of this series approximately 100 years between coin types and hopefully this shows the continued abstraction of the design..
    Note...The coins of Toramana II show the rulers name enscribed on the kings side of the coin....300 years later the rulers name has been tranferred onto the Lakshmi side....
    tor id5.jpg

    .....
    Here's a my latest pick up...
    A nice lifetime issue of Toramana II with an added bonus!
    The reason I bought this coin is at 7 0'clock on the reverse you can clearly see the lions head that Lakshmi is seated on...Quite difficult to find the lion depicted in such detail. As to whether Lakshmi is sitting on the lion or its laid at her feet I don't really know but I've seen references to both and has even been described as a lion rug!?..But one things for sure as this coin series progressed, disappeared and then reappeared 300 years later, the lion was no longer there being replaced by an abstract triangle or square.
    tora.jpg
     
  10. Parthicus

    Parthicus Well-Known Member

    Thanks @Spaniard for your detailed and informative reply. So, it sounds like you think my OP coin is actually a lifetime issue of Toramana II, and not a product of the strange 300-year lacuna? I don't mind, actually that is even cooler from my point of view since it can be attributed to a specific king and timeframe rather than just a 300-year period.

    That sounds like an excellent premise for a movie. I'm thinking one of the Universal 1930s monster films. "From the studio that gave you Frankenstein, Dracula, The Mummy, and The Invisible Man! Can you resist the horror of... The Giant Claw of Kashmir! Starring Joel McCrea, Gloria Stuart, and Lyle Talbot, and introducing Turhan Bey as Toramana! Don't miss it!"
     
    Theodosius, Spaniard and +VGO.DVCKS like this.
  11. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    I'll be waiting for the DVD release.
     
  12. otlichnik

    otlichnik Well-Known Member

    Excellent post. Happy that I can drag out a coin I picked up in Mumbai circa 2008 and refine the identification. Based on Spaniard's posting I am guessing Kshemagupta. However the two letters (?) to either side of the reverse figure (Goddess) appear different from those pictured.

    Shawn K1.jpg K2.jpg
     
  13. happy_collector

    happy_collector Well-Known Member

    The claw-like hands are really huge.
     
  14. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    @otlichnik......Your coin is Queen Didda Rani 980-1003 AD
    KSET.jpg
     
  15. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    :woot: @Spaniard, can you post a bigger picture!
     
  16. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    .....Sorry thought I had, hope this one's better?

    big.jpg
     
  17. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    That's much better. This is going to be cached away for future reference! Thanks...
     
    Spaniard likes this.
  18. otlichnik

    otlichnik Well-Known Member

    Great, thanks. So I assume that despite the stylistics differences those symbols are letters and that is the main identifying feature? And are those symbols on the goddess side? Which side is considered the obverse?

    SC
     
    Spaniard likes this.
  19. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    The symbols are the letters in Nagari script....The script is read from left to right and spells out the rulers name. On later ruler issues the legend spelling continues over onto the reverse. So yes the Lakshmi side is the obverse...Here's a breakdown of your coin...You might be interested in a thread I wrote a while back on this series...
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/kashmir.303978/
    k12.jpg
    Here's the reverse of my Didda Rani still showing the Mad hand (CLAW) more than 400 years later..
    K11.jpg
     
  20. Black Friar

    Black Friar Well-Known Member

    Thanks so much for sharing this wonderful reference chart and to all who have contributed to this posting. I collect too many areas, this will make a difference to me in another source of reference.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page