The first coins of Vietnam

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Loong Siew, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. Loong Siew

    Loong Siew Well-Known Member

    The first coins of Vietnam.

    The “ Đinh “ Dinh Dynasty 968 – 980 :

    Thai Binh Hung Bao. Reverse Dinh 丁 mark. AD970.

    The first known official Vietnamese coinage from the time of the Dinh dynasty. Back then Vietnam was known as Annam and was for a thousand years since the Qin Dynasty in China, an interregnum period under the Trieu 赵 dynasty before under direct Chinese suzerainity up to AD938.

    After the victory over the twelve self-appointed governors ruling chaotic Annam and the Later Ngo kings, Dinh Bo Linh proclaimed himself ‘Emperor Dinh Tien Hoang’, established his capital at Hoa Lu and renamed the country Dai Co Viet in the year of 968. He was the first Emperor to cast Vietnamese coins ‘Thai Binh Hung Bao’ in Viet Nam history and opened an independent era from China for Viet Nam.

    For thr next millennia, Vietnam continued the tradition of issuance of cash coinage but with distinct Vietnamese regnal titles apart from occasional Chinese imitations and imports.

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  3. GerardV

    GerardV Supporter! Supporter

    Nice write up and coins.
    Loong Siew likes this.
  4. Loong Siew

    Loong Siew Well-Known Member

  5. Youngcoin

    Youngcoin Everything Collector

    Very nice.
    Loong Siew likes this.
  6. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Nice @Loong Siew ! Great coin and good write-up.

    I regret I have no Viet coins. I am trying to find a silver Chinese coin. Did the Viet Empire produce any silver coins?
    Loong Siew likes this.
  7. Loong Siew

    Loong Siew Well-Known Member

    Thanks @Alegandron .. The Viet empire produced silver coins. The one i know of are the 19th century silver tiens.
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  8. AnYangMan

    AnYangMan Well-Known Member

    Nice one, Loong siew! ‘Official’ Vietnamese cash is quite an interesting area! I can only post a couple of later, unofficial, cash coins, most likely cast in Vietnam. They all imitate Chinese cash coins, An Phap style (you mentioned these Chinese imitations in your write-up, I believe), but they are much, much smaller (around 21 mm) than the coins they imitate. Dating these is problematic, as is accurately determining the country of origin. Note the coarse workmanship and sometimes hilariously (de)formed characters.

    Thien Thanh Nguyen Bao (天聖元寶), imitating a Northern Song Tian Sheng Yuan Bao:


    Đại Định Thong Bao (大定通寶), imitating a Northern Song Da Ding Tong Bao:


    Thanh Nguyen Thong Bao (聖元通寶), a fair bit of debate concerning this type, probably not an actual imitation:


    Nguyen Phong Thong Bao (元豐通寶), imitating a Northern Song Yuan Feng Tong Bao:

  9. Loong Siew

    Loong Siew Well-Known Member

    Lovely specimens @AnYangMan . A number of Chinese numismatists usually can deduce the origin of such imitations by their legends and build like you said. Another one that is interesting in my opinion is a qianlong cash coin with the character 南 for Annam. Probably an indirect muscling into Vietnam from an influence perspective?
    AnYangMan likes this.
  10. chrsmat71

    chrsmat71 I LIKE TURTLES!

    Cool coin! I only have a few modern things from Vietnam, nothing ancient. I didn't know about the name, that's pretty interesting as well.


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  11. Muzyck

    Muzyck I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a biscuit today.

    Nice. My coinage from that region only dates as far back as 1225 - 1258. I have a number different period and rebellion coinage after that.
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  12. arnoldoe

    arnoldoe Well-Known Member

    Here is my only holed cast coin so far...
    This coin was previously sold in 2014 as a extremely rare Northern Song coin from the reign of Qin Zong (Hartill 16.517) for 4000 Euros + fees on a 3600 Euro Starting bid... however it seems that the coin was found by the buyer to have not been a genuine Northern Song coin, rather a later imitation from the 16th century and was probably returned after the buyer discovered that information.

    Then earlier this year the coin was re-auctioned by the same auction house with a starting bid of 900 Euros as a Javanese Imitation but went unsold...

    I then acquired it a few weeks ago and e-mailed David Hartill about it and he said it was likely an imitation from Vietnam or Indonesia after 1500 since before that date zinc wasn't used in Chinese coins.

    For the 2014 auction the coin was supposedly XRF'd with the results...
    Cu 71,44 %, Zn 14,07 %, Sn 2,32 %, Pb 7,37 %, Fe 2,48 %
  13. Loong Siew

    Loong Siew Well-Known Member

    Thanks @chrsmat71 . Here's a bit of trivia for you on Vietnam. The Trieu Dynasty was founded by a Chinese Qin Dynasty General named Zhao Tuo. Back then his territory included what is now Guangzhou in Guangdong Province China.

    Also why it was called Nam Viet 南越 was due to being South of Yue 越。Yue was an ancient Chinese state that encompass parts of southern China South of the Yangtze.
  14. Loong Siew

    Loong Siew Well-Known Member

    Thanks. Actually these Thai Binh are not considered rare. But they are slowly getting harder to find.
  15. Loong Siew

    Loong Siew Well-Known Member

    You are right about the Qin Zong coin being extremely rare. The one you showed is the rarer Tong Bao variant. I have a less rarer Yuan Bao 3 cash variant as attached:

  16. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    tang.jpg spade_front.jpg Han.jpg Hi Guys

    I just started to collect some ancient chinese coins and dont know if they are authentic. I heard they can make very good patina faked. I like to know opinion of some expert regarding my coins Do they look real and good patina? I really appreciate your help as I love to have a real coin from ancient china.
    The first one is tang dynasty , second one is warring states, third is eastern Han.

    Best Regards
  17. Loong Siew

    Loong Siew Well-Known Member

  18. AnYangMan

    AnYangMan Well-Known Member

    @arashpour: First of all, welcome to the forum! Nice to see someone getting into collecting ancient Chinese cash, I really think it is a somewhat underestimated are numismatically, at least here in the west. As you already said, the fakes are getting better in quality and thus harder to detect, and it takes years of practice to spot some of the better ones. As someone who has been specialising in late warring states spade coinage for more than a while now, I can’t say too much about the Eastern Han Wu-zhu and the Kai-yuan, but I am inclined to follow the judgement of @Loong Siew on these two; I too think these two are genuine.

    The second one, the spade, is right up my alley. And I hate to break it to you, but I am afraid it is indeed a fake. You bought this from the ebay-seller Best66666, right? This notorious seller has been selling these fakes for years now. They all have the same patina and the fat, clumsy characters. Rims are too thick and the calligraphy is way-off. Other than that, his fakes are quite sophisticated. The original type is extremely rare (even though Hartill rates it 8/16) and I have never seen a genuine one yet. Hartill 3.432, Zhou shi. I hope you can still get your money back, cause this one is a modern forgery I am afraid!

    Kind regards,

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  19. Loong Siew

    Loong Siew Well-Known Member

    The Tang Kai Yuan and Wu zhu are too common to be worth faking. That's one reason. Also the encrustations and patina on these 2 are legitimate. As for the spade, i see the resemblance to best6666 pieces. Not surprising if from him as @AnYangMan suspected. The characters have a uncharacteristic smoothness on it.. something like a birthday cake writing. Also, the patina has a soapy and feel to it. In addition, the borders of the spade have not been filed. It should not appear as if it has that much extra metal not filed off.
  20. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    @Loong Siew and @AnYangMan you guys are best. you even guessed correctly that the spade was from best6666. I'm so shocked and amazed. please help me to get better in asian coin collecting. I really appreciate your help. I'm thinking to buy this coin from an eBay dealer called vncoin. is he trustworthy or fake seller? this coin is rather expensive so I like to make sure it's not fake . as long as real even I'm willing to pay higher price for a good Tang coin. there is also one sui coin that i bought from china and it seems its slabbed by some Chinese company kind of like what NGC does but don't know how trustworthy is this company. please let me know if this also looks authentic. I greatly appreciate your helps. you are my hero in ancient Chinese coins now. please help me.

    20180204_025215.jpg 20180204_025221.jpg s-l500-4.jpg
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  21. Loong Siew

    Loong Siew Well-Known Member

    Vncoin is a reliable eBay dealer and the ones posted appear authentic for both. I do not know the prices offered but these are common coins and if you are paying a premium just for the authentication then I don't think you are getting a good deal. Vncoin is open for negotiation. I recommend that you send him a message and ask for a best price offer. This coin company is not a well known one. The ones that arenof NGC or PCGS equivalent of Chinese Cash coins are Huaxia and GCBA.
    Alegandron likes this.
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