Featured The first and last Goths

And what to think about this coin?
Some of the subtitles are rune.
Herules?
https://www.academia.edu/16687554/E...collection_of_ancient_coins_in_the_Ossolineum
HRUSTIS ?

 

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Golden coins - I knew.
But what the silver imitations were for?
That's less than 1% of other Roman denarii from that area.

 

Thanks for the link; very interesting. Despite the author's best effort and the opinion of well known experts like Düwel and Nedoma, I'm afraid these are just "accidental" runes. The writer of the legend tried to imitate Roman writing, leading to the construction of: 1. mostly phantasy letters with no meaning whatsoever and 2. a couple of signs that turned out to look like Germanic runes.

My coins are currently in a bank safe, but looking through some Pictures, I can see "accidental" runes also my coins.

There are only a handful of runic objects from East Germanic areas, which may well be the result of gift exchange, trade or the presence of North Germanic people (such as Heruls). Indeed, there is no conclusive proof that Goths used runes.

Again, these coin-pendants were made to represent Roman aurei. They were meant to look like Roman coin, without any regard for the actual depiction let alone the legend. I have one example that shows the emperor's head on both sides. It is, in my view completely out of character to think that on one of these coin-pendents genuine Germanic runes have been mixed into what is otherwise a jumble of unintelligble phantasy-letters - especially in a society which otherwise did not use runes.


Best
Dirk

 

The silver (billon) imitations exist in large quantities. Not much is known about them. I noticed that find spots are often very far in the east, i.e. east of the Dnepr river, suggesting that they cannot be attributed (exclusively) to the Goths. Also, some of the imitations seem to pre-date the arrival of Germanic peoples in the region.

Best
Dirk

 

... to add to the case of "accidental" runic imitations. There is an article, in which the author describes an imitation, which seems to show an 8-legged horse and he argues that this is the original model for Norse god Odin's horse Sleipnir, which famously had 8 legs.

In reality, the horse on the coin has 8 legs because the die-sinker copied a Roman aureus showing a quadriga in profile. He copied the legs, but left out the additional heads, thus accidentially giving the impression of an 8-legged horse. Another case of wishful thinking.

Best
Dirk

 

... to add to runic writing and expert interpretations. I collect also some ancient objects, and I have what seemed to be a belt-end with runic letters. One of the experts in the article by Degler, confirmed that these are runes and suggested a reading for it. Later it turned out that the belt-end was a 16th. century book clasp and the runes were pseudo-letters.

Best
Dirk

 

To see large catalogs of gold and silver imitations from Ukraine search for:

barbarous-imitations.narod.ru

This site shows some 400 gold imitations and some 1550 silver imitations.
What is immediately clear is that the gold imitations are mostly holed. Even official Roman coins found in modern Ukraine are usually holed. Gold coins, whether official or imitative were apparently used as pendants.

The silver coins are practically never holed. Often they are quite worn. They may have been used as real money, perhaps mixed into bags with official Roman coins where there was a shortage of supply in official Roman coins.

Importantly, the site above records the find spots (it is linked to an auction site where diggers sell their finds). My observation is that the golden imitations are found in areas associated with Germanic peoples (Goths), while the silver coins have a much wider distribution reaching well beyond east of the Dnepr river. However, this needs to be confirmed by careful research.

Best
Dirk

 

Thank you for your answer.
I know this catalog.
Professor Bursche's lecture is interesting. There are maps there.

Interesting information is also on:
https://forum.violity.com/viewforum.php?f=243&sid=3956e91aa2ad8daa3fd54e45e278e456
Regards

 

Pater emon o enouranois, hagiasthetou to onoma sou. Pater noster qui es in caelo, sanctificetur nomen tuum, Vater Unser, der du bist in Himmel geheiliget werde dein Name. Boy, is that site a great place to learn or what?

 

Runic script
An example from this area
https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/sprachen/languages_antiquity/gothic/kovel.html

 

Very interesting. I'm German though and don't understand Polish unfortunately.

Best
Dirk

 

https://uw.academia.edu/AleksanderBursche
You can find a lot here

 

Were the Goths connected with Crimean Tatars ?

 

Probably not.
The Crimean Khanate was founded in the 15th century.
The last duchy of Goths also fell in the 15th century

 

You could be right, Valens. Still, it just could be possible the the Crimeans took on some Goth heritage.- Actually, I only just looked up Crimean Tatars. It looks like Goths (Ostrogoths and Visigoths) were some, but only some, of the Crimean Tatar's ancestors. Others included Gypsies, Greeks, Italians, Armenians etc. So Crimean Tatars were quite a mix. The Visigoths and Ostrogoths played an important role in the fall of the Western Roman Empire. through the long series of Gothic wars etc. There is more to the story, but don't expect me to write a 'War & Peace' !

 

In 1475, the capital of Gotow Mankup was captured.
Prince Goths Alexander was executed in Istanbul.
The Goths lost their meaning. His son converted to Islam.
The Goths did not mean anything anymore.
Crimean Tatars are another matter.

 

"The Goths lost their meaning - - - The Goths did not mean anything anymore." That's your view, Valens, which you are entitled to.

 

After 1475, the Goths no longer had any political significance.

 

You say, Valens, that the Goths lost their meaning, and then, that, after 1475, they no longer had any political significance. Those are two different, possibly contradictory, statements. I did some browsing, resulting in that the "Gothic problem" was addressed by Nazi "scholars", who planned to rename the Crimea Gotenland. The Soviets did their bit to "Russify" history of the Crimea. To study the Crimean Goths became increasingly difficult. - My own guesstimate is not that the Goths mysteriously vanished into thin air, but intermingled with other populations. Maybe, today, there is no such thing as a "pure" Goth, although many people, especially in and around the Caucasus, have some Gothic traces, from their ancestry.

 

I think Valens is right, the last ember of Gothic political identity died in the 15th century at the very latest with the principality of Gothia. In fact, the remnants of the Crimean Gothic culture and identity had already earlier been absorbed into the Greek culture which prevailed on the Crimean at the time. The princes of this principality were Greeks not Goths.

In the 16th century the Crimean Gothic language was clearly on the brink of extinction. de Busbecq's records from the 1560s show that the Crimean Goths whom he encountered could not even speak the language. Instead, he had to rely on a Greek from the Crimean who knew a few words for his word list.

Best
Dirk