Paul I take offence to your you being a "real" collector and somehow I'm not . I go to shops and shows as often as I can , which is not often enough , plus with all the coins on the internet why would you limit yourself , in these cases I use all the resources available to me , CAC included , one other thing I'm not the best grader in the world but I'm sure I can grade as good as most . rzage
calm down and start grading those licolns there might be a costly coin int here somewhere and remember people who are riding a high horse always fall down always have adn always will humiltiy goes a long way even if some of us thik we are better than the rest dont get caught in that argument
From what I've read (which was posted and deleted) the company is trying to weed out the lower end coins in general. They hope by cataloging all they look at by their serial numbers and by affixing their stickers, that the more premium ones will rise to the top, while a slab without the sticker will hopefully be scrutinized more, as to why it doesn't have one. As time goes on, they expect that most premium coins will go through their service. What I have trouble agreeing with is that "B" coins will get a green sticker as well as an "A" coin. Reason being that they think median examples that are not of low quality and/or doctored have become increasingly elusive. So you don't really know sight unseen if it's a B or an A, but it absolutely should not be a C. And trust me, I've seen some bad mint state C's. Eye appeal is probably going to play a large role. An under-graded, premium high quality A will be all that gets the gold sticker. Perhaps they should only be giving the green sticker to A quality coins? But maybe that would raise the price too much and they'd rather have the B and A price range even out, rather than affecting price more severely? Plus it creates a buffer. At least we should know what the green sticker means now and that it actually SHOULD justify paying more for the coin as that is the whole point of the program. So that the nicer, properly graded ones are labeled and others simply won't be. Like it or not, it's fractional grading which we knew was coming, looks to be here to stay and should theoretically properly adjust prices. For everyone that's angry about it, the beauty of it is that you can still look at a stickered slab for yourself and if you don't agree with either grading service's opinion on an individual piece.........you can still PASS on it just as you would a raw coin. Which is why I don't see the big deal. An ungraded coin obviously, and automatically has two grade opinions. The seller's and the buyer's and then it's always possible that its a good counterfeit or has been cleaned and doctored. I know that's how it's always been in the past but maybe some people don't want to deal with that? The dealer's always going to think their opinion is correct no matter how good of a grader you are. At least a dealer can't try to pass off a slabbed AU50 coin to you as a MS-60 and expect you to meet in the middle.
It's just a strategy to exploit the market buy creating enough fear and doubt to cause a pricing bubble with their stickers. It remains unethical. If they want to do something they could crack it out of the slab and regrade it with their own slab. And then everyone can pick apart their equally poor grading. With the lack of understanding of what industrial validation is, and little sophistication in marketing, you coin hobbyists keep becoming exploited and chasing your tail. There is no argument about the wonders of CAC grading that can validate its usefulness in any way. It is a Pyramid scheme. A marketing SCAM. Wake up and smell the coffee. CAC advertizing SAYS, "Get the Most value on your Coins with a CAC sticker" It's not about grading. Its about scamming the market. Ruben
It's about money of course , but also about fractional grading which Vess1 stated so well is here and will probably stay , people don't like change and this is the start of the change . I'm sure most peeps didn't like the 70 pt. scale when it was universealy adopted .:thumb: rzage
How is CAC unethical? How is CAC a pyramid scheme? pyramid scheme - a deceptive (usually illegal) operation where participants pay to join and profit from payments made by subsequent participants; the pyramid scheme usually collapses when there are not enough new participants to continue funding the operation
Pyramid schemes use a combination of fear, ego and greed to get individuals to suspend common sense and lose all there money for the benefit of a con artist. Just like CAC. Aside from missing Marketing, industrial validation standards, and economics we need to add fundamentals of business ethics to the areas of ignorance in the coin market by Numismatic experts of a variety of stripe. Ruben
Even factorial grading is not useful against this kind of FUD scheme. No matter what you grade, unless you have a validated process that the public can measure and have measurable faith in the CAC quackery will just continue on. If CAC becomes a successful then the tpg's will attack their market but reslabbing with annotation, fractional grading AND most importantly, tighter grading and reverse PR. But the whole business will continue to fraught with scams until validated grading processes are constructed and strictly enforced. Ruben
So if two things share some traits they are the same. Interesting theory. Humans and gorillas share 99% of their DNA but humans are not gorillas. This discussion seems to have headed off into hyperbole. That's where I get off.
This has nothing to do with DNA, but it does have to do with scams. I think that hiding behind such a specious comment just serves to ridicule the correct observations that have been made about the CAC fraud. If you support the work of CAC its is no better than supporting any other coin scheme from ebay slabbers to Amway. The manipulation of the emotional fears which cause a misrepresentation of true market values and market information for individual for profitability is devious. And it is no better than what the TPGers do with the 70 grade. Ruben
Oh give me a break! You need to look up the definition of Pyramid scheme. That is so far off in left field, I don't believe I will waste my time discussing this issue with you much longer. That analogy is garbage.
I don't know Milton Friedman , but for my sake please use laymans terms as I didn't make it past the 6th grade . rzage:whistle:
So NGC grades a coin as a MS-64. It's now worth 500 bucks. Regardless of CAC. They haven't seen it yet. It gets submitted to them. They agree that this coin that has already been bought and sold at 500 several times is at least a B grade MS-64. They affix their approval for a small, one time fee. The coin now gets sold 10 times at 525.00. The extra 250.00 that the coin brings over 10 separate sales does not funnel back to CAC. Eventually, maybe the market goes down for that coin. Now people are only willing to pay 400.00 for it. So what does it really matter? The market changed and now you can get it for 125 less than you would have paid at another time? The one time fee is paying for their time to verify a grade. This is a service. Thus, not a pyramid scheme in any aspect. In your mind it's a scam. If you really do think it's such a bad scam, you should call the authorities. Alert the FBI and have them look into it. Since it's a true scam like you say. Give them all your valid points.
your not listening to them anyway, so what is the point in repeating them for the 20th time. personal attack removed Ruben
Paul, Did all five of these coins get submitted to CAC? And only two were returned with CAC Stickers? Or is this a case where you picked 5 coins and asked us to determine which ones just happen to have CAC Stickers? I am not convinced CAC is necessary based off this poll. Thanks
