Thanks a lot Justin Lee

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Sallent, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    As if I needed one more addiction, in comes @Justin Lee to show me one more thing I needed but didn't yet know I wanted.

    I now present my two copperplate hand-colored prints from the 17th Century, and a relevant coin to match. Going to frame both up for my office wall.

    4894-700x700.jpg
    35 x 24.5 cm (13.8 x 9.8 inches).
    De Urbis Colossis (1699 CE)
    Pietro Santi Bartoli
    Copperplate engraving on chain-linked cotton paper. (hand colored).

    This is a representation of the seven colossal statues that dotted the city of Rome in antiquity. Number 6 is none other than the Colossal statue of Nero.

    Although no one is completely sure what the statue looked like in reality, here is a fairly decent modern depiction.

    c62ea6d90f553e515a34e33d75e7918d.jpg

    Anyway, here is a coin of Nero to accompany it:

    T7o84PLsFpA2z6GJ9XiHdoQ75tNEsF.jpg
    Nero
    Ae As

    And my other print is what this 17th century artist imagined the mausoleum of Augustus would have looked like in its prime.

    4887-700x700 (1).jpg
    35 x 24.5 cm (13.8 x 9.8 inches).
    Mausoleum Augusti (1699 CE)
    Pietro Santi Bartoli
    Copperplate engraving on chain-linked cotton paper. (hand colored).

    And here is what modern research and scholarship thinks the actual mausoleum looked like.

    3D_Reconstruction_Mausoleum_of_Augustus_2-1.jpg

    Here is a relevant coin of Augustus:

    ok5LK4kT5sY3Z8bQ9tcCgNz6r7JeR3.jpg
    Augustus
    AR denarius

    I will add that the whole book must have been obscenely expensive as it comprised of around 140 copperplate images. This was not an easy feat in the 17th century. And a premium hand-drawn version like this must have been even more ridiculously expensive as it took a team of artists to sit there and hand color these prints one by one.

    I've got to say that as a history nerd I'm actually quite thrilled at the prospect of having 2 pages from a book up on my wall that are older than the United States of America, and depict what people in the late 17th Century imagined the ancient Roman world looked like.

    Post any relevant coins/artworks/etc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
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  3. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    I'm really happy for you!! They will look SUPURB on your wall!! And I hope you're not too upset... ;)

    I would've thought you might've gone more into this topic area:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    *(I know, I know... not the III)
     
  4. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Yes I saw those and they're very nice. However, they're more the type of thing that I would hang in my personal office at home. But I wanted something more historic and eye catching for my business office as clients are going to be seeing that. I'm probably also going to eventually get a replica of a bust or two of Emperors and/or deities for my business office.

    But yes, to answer your question I will probably be getting some of those 19th century black and white prints from my home office shortly.
     
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  5. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    Then maybe not this one for your work office either...
    [​IMG]
     
  6. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    On the bust/statue theme here a couple of mid-3rd century guys.

    Trajan Decius as Mars...

    deciusstatue.jpg

    And colossal statue of Trebonianus Gallus:

    gallus1.jpg

    I'm not sure I'd want either one in my office. I did have a replica bust of Aurelius in my old office, my profession involved a certain amount of Stoicism. If one is fortunate, 3 investments out of ten are successful, five deals are sideways, and 2 complete flops. Thus is the world of private equity...
     
  7. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Uhm, yeah, here's the thing... my office is not exactly huge and my budget is not unlimited so that would pretty much rule out any life-sized replicas of colossal statues.

    Frankly, what I really want is a medium sized marble bust of Marcus Tullius Cicero...and maybe Ceneca the Younger. You know...people of legal background who were widely regarded as some of the greatest statesmen of their time.
     
  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I know I am no fun but ask we all consider the effect of framing and hanging original old prints in offices. This is especially true if the office is 24/7 lighted, receives direct sunlight, or has fluorescent tubes in ceiling fixtures. I have several antique photos on my house walls but rather than matting the original 1850's to 1880's prints, I use really good copies (most better than the originals that tend to have faded over the years). The life span of old paper items depends on many factors of their materials and preparation. Some will last forever under any abuse; some will fade in a year. Copies are easy to replace.
     
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  9. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    my office does not receive any direct sunlight and the light fixtures are only on for about 8 to 9 hours a day, but thanks for killing the fun. Thankfully, this dealer does have a second website which sells new prints of old copperplates, and he is selling copies of the originals that I just bought. I suppose I can store away the originals and buy copies for my office.

    Or I can be a rebel and hang them up anyways. If it fades then that's ok. They were black and white to begin with prior to the hand drawing, and most surviving copies are the black and white version. However, I really doubt a windowless office with one light fixture on the ceiling will do any real damage. What really kills all paper is sunlight and humidity, and my office lacks both.
     
  10. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    About 20 years ago I was into books, leaves, etc. from the 15th Century and later. It was a really interesting hobby, but books take up loads of space and the hobby got more popular. A common unillustrated book from the 1500's was around $50, now its a few hundred. But, it was fascinating. I also collected English vellum indentures. Now those are really cool, and @Sallent as a lawyer you really ought to have one. With luck you can find one under $100 a couple hundred years old.
     
  11. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Yes, that is the problem some of us have. I have photographs made many decades ago by a 'art' photographer who hogged a huge view camera miles from the nearest road to take some little waterfall. Today the prints of those images are irreplaceable even if we still have the negatives since they don't make paper like the once did. I have albumen prints from c.1870 by big name photographers that have not faded in the thirty years I have abused them on my walls. I have 8x10" contact prints in equal shape but only from the 1970's that are doing well now but no one will care about them in another 100 years when the photographer (me) is long gone. At what point does our ownership of such items turn into the 'curatorship' we discuss for our coins? Paper items become antiquities faster than silver coins.
    Years ago I visited an artsy-craftsy shoppe that was selling dozens of versions of the image below made into note card sets, paperweights, fancy frames and a wide range of prices but all over $10. The original c.1850 hand colored daguerreotype was there in the case, too, so I asked the price. The shopkeeper said she had so many copies so she had no use for the original and asked $10. It was the only thing in the shop that was not her artwork so obviously not worth much. I sometimes wonder how many of the copies she sold to decorate offices and homes and how many of them still exist. I am the current caretaker of this little boy. I value his being an original even though he had no value added by the art lady to whom he had outlived his usefulness.
    [​IMG]

    I encourage the copies.
     
  12. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    @dougsmit I get your point and I will say this, I would not have bought anything original to hang up (from the 17th century) if it wasn't for the fact that my actual office does not have any windows. I definitely wouldn't want to expose any art worth anything to any sunlight. I do have windows in the waiting room and corridor, but those places are filled with really cheap paintings that look nice but are certainly no work of art that would be terribly missed by anyone.

    If I do change offices in the future and can't keep these things away from sunlight, I do have one or two spots in my house that don't get any direct sunlight and I can put them in there. I definitely appreciate your sentiments, and all jokes aside, they are well received and appreciated.

    At any rate, I can always change my mind and keep the originals stored away for occasional viewing and put up copies. Nothing is decided as of yet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
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  13. dadams

    dadams Well-Known Member

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  14. dadams

    dadams Well-Known Member

    I hope you have titled him "Little Boy Blue"
     
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  15. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    If any of you would like to buy an art copy of my originals, or art copies from other hand-painted originals...this is the website.

    https://www.finevintageart.com/pietro-santi-bartoli/bartoli-roman-statue-2797

    A modern art copy in the same size as the original is only $30. I think I will buy an art copy of both my originals for display as @dougsmit has convinced me that I have a greater responsibility to preserve the originals. Either that or get a quotation from a local business to see how much they will charge me for a high-quality print in the same size as my originals.

    If you would actually like to buy some hand colored originals from the 17th century, the dealer has them on this web page... and although they're not terribly expensive, they do cost quite a bit more than the $30 for a modern art copy of them.

    https://www.finerareprints.com/classical-antique-prints/rome-antique-prints

    A word of caution. I am not related in any way to these people so I make no representations as to quality of service, etc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
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  16. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    New Zealand? Free shipping over $100 would seem the way to go.
     
  17. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Yeah, I would not order less than $100. Not worth it with the shipping. Free shipping is the way to go. If I do end up getting the copies from them, instead of locally, I'll probably wait to combine it with an additional order (I have a few black and white 19th century copperplates I'm eyeing for my home office and also as potential Secret Santa gifts for this forum.) Christmas is just around the corner after all.
     
  18. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Prints are here, covered with protective acid free archival plastic envelope. Off to my dark safe they go.

    I will order some high quality prints made from the originals to hang up instead. It would be a shame to allow something to happen to the originals just so I can display them.

    Since they are covered in archival plastic sleeves (I'm not actually touching the paper in these photos) you may get some odd reflection here or there in the photo that may end up looking like a discoloration of the print where there is none. The prints do have some foxing around the edges and one or two other discolored spots, but they are very small and the whole thing is in remarkable shape for being from 1699 CE.

    IMG_20181002_154318.jpg IMG_20181002_154512.jpg
     
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  19. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    PS: If you look around the edges of the images, it looks as if the images have been framed on another piece of paper. I'm sure you guys can see the lines distinctly in my photos. However, if one looks closely, you will see no seam or sign of glue, and that's because it's all one single piece of paper. That's called the press lines, and resulted from when the inked copper plate was pressed hard on the moist paper to create the image. Only an original copperplate will have those indentation marks around the image.
     
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  20. dadams

    dadams Well-Known Member

    @Sallent honestly I don't see why you cannot display the originals - if they were matted using acid free archival materials and framed using UV glass and you don't hang them in font of a sunny window they should be just fine. I'd be a bit disappointed visiting your office only to discover you had hung up copies. -d
     
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  21. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    I agree. @Sallent , you obviously value the originals, but I anticipate the next generation will not appreciate them a much as you do. (They will want original Donkey Kong materials. :)) Enjoy them yourself before they are thrown in the trash by your kids. However, if you insist on using copies and preserving the originals, may I suggest this web site?

    http://remoneda.com/tienda/index.php?id_category=10&controller=category&id_lang=3

    It should help your coin budget go much further.
     
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