Thank God my PCGS Membership is up... who should I use to grade coins instead?

They are the leaders in the industry. Lots of wishful thinking on your part.

 

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You're probably right, but it makes no difference. I'll take my money to their competitors

 

Here is a challenge: Put some money where your mouth is. You pay postage both ways and send any slab you feel is incorrectly graded to me at ICG. We'll leave them in their slabs and give you/PCGS a fair review. Take before pictures so folks will see what you send.

You may wish to think about this as I don't hold back comments on any coin from any one or any TPGS including the one I work at.

 

Lolz yeah I'll pass. Maybe you'll see it maybe you won't

 

I never "grade" from photos. Any opinion I would offer as such is worthless without seeing the coin in hand.

I will offer an opinion as to whether I think a piece is something I would be interested in and would buy after in - hand verification of the condition, or whether I would pass, or if I think the cost paid for a piece is reasonable or not.

The half in this thread surprises me that it received the TPG opinion it did, based on the photos alone. If the coin in hand verifies what I am observing, the piece received a "gift" grade. I don't understand the complaint. The word 'Details" is a funny thing, when applied to a coin grade opinion, especially a coin the size of a half-dollar with intended design features that are much more prominent. If a coin has "XX Details", it does not mean, and should not be interpreted as, an opinion that except for the stated reasons...cleaned/ pmd, etc., it would have been a no problem XX Grade. That is a fallacy.

I do not think the obvious wear of the coin in the photos is weak strike. I do think there are a few "enhanced" details, that were not the result of luck because of storage, or because it was placed in an album to protect any further deterioration....yes deterioration... or because it set in a cabinet for years and years after a few years of "honest wear" (I despise that term).

Deciding to criticize a TPG for the resulting opinion concerning this coin is folly, and somewhat old man yells at clouds disappointment.

 

Kevin Farley, posted: "Lolz yeah I'll pass. Maybe you'll see it maybe you won't.


No surprise, It's better for a collector to think they know how to grade rather than the alternative. I'm sure many of us here are disappointed with your choice.

 

"charley, posted: "I never "grade" from photos. Any opinion I would offer as such is worthless without seeing the coin in hand.

I will offer an opinion as to whether I think a piece is something I would be interested in and would buy after in - hand verification of the condition, or whether I would pass, or if I think the cost paid for a piece is reasonable or not.

The half in this thread surprises me that it received the TPG opinion it did, based on the photos alone. If the coin in hand verifies what I am observing, the piece received a "gift" grade. I don't understand the complaint. The word 'Details" is a funny thing, when applied to a coin grade opinion, especially a coin the size of a half-dollar with intended design features that are much more prominent. If a coin has "XX Details", it does not mean, and should not be interpreted as, an opinion that except for the stated reasons...cleaned/ pmd, etc., it would have been a no problem XX Grade. That is a fallacy.

I do not think the obvious wear of the coin in the photos is weak strike. I do think there are a few "enhanced" details, that were not the result of luck because of storage, or because it was placed in an album to protect any further deterioration....yes deterioration... or because it set in a cabinet for years and years after a few years of "honest wear" (I despise that term).

Deciding to criticize a TPG for the resulting opinion concerning this coin is folly, and somewhat old man yells at clouds disappointment."

Unfortunately, I think you are incorrect. You see, "Details" grading was adopted when the top two services received too much backlash for "body bags." Details grading was being done as far back as 1972. It is actually technical grading (designed to describe a coin): grade the coin then describe the problem.

Net grading being done in the commercial market was the folly. Net graders deducted a grade (the amount of details remaining after circulation OR the quality of a MS example) for the problem. Thus an AU Large cent with a scratch would be a "technical" AU, scratched rather than a coin net graded XF!

A detailed graded coin should not be also net graded. So the detail grade IS THE COIN'S GRADE if it did not have the problem.

Now, if some professional ex-dealers at a top TPGS wish to do what you have posted, IMHO they are also misinformed. Otherwise, in an attempt to place a value on a coin they have agreed to keep grading too complicated for collectors to understand.

 

That's interesting. Does anyone have any thoughts on using PCGS for world coins, medieval coins and medals versus NGC? I've heard NGC is better, but I have no experience with either PCGS or NGC. How about ANACS or ICG for those also?

 

What you have written actually agrees with me. We also both know that there is no such thing as an incorrect opinion, for the very reason it is only an opinion.

I know exactly when/why details grading was adapted, and when/why body bags were replaced with a make em' feel good method of encapsulation. I think you may have just not remembered who led the charge in 2007/2008.

I welcome your thoughts and opinions and corrections. I do not agree with your method of doing so, by enhancing and selectively using a turn of phrase and convoluted numismatic 'definitions" in a method that conveys your infallibility, that were not mentioned by me at all as a point of information and/or elucidation. You have a habit of writing in that manner, and while it may be acceptable to some, considering your profession, my opinion is that it will always result in both of us talking past each other.
I will stay pat on my thoughts and opinion.

A small and somewhat insignificant aside to illustrate, which coin do you think I was referring to?

 

charley, posted: "What you have written actually agrees with me. [ Actually, it does NOT! You posted that: If a coin has "XX Details", it does not mean,...it would have been a no problem XX Grade.] We also both know [ Not so fast, speak for yourself] that there is no such thing as an incorrect [ ] opinion, for the very reason it is only an opinion." [Nuts, some opinions are just plain, uninformed, stupid nonsense!]

"I know exactly when/why details grading was adapted, and when/why body bags were replaced with a make em' feel good method of encapsulation. I think you may have just not remembered who led the charge in 2007/2008." [I have no idea what you are talking about so PLEASE inform all of us "who led the charge" since you were there. All of the second tier services FORCED the two top services to actually PROVIDE A SERVICE for taking money FOR NOTHING! As far as I remember (so don't quote me), we stopped using body bags at NGC before 2007/2008.

"I welcome your thoughts and opinions and corrections. I do not agree with your method of doing so, by enhancing and selectively using a turn of phrase and convoluted numismatic 'definitions" in a method that conveys your infallibility, that were not mentioned by me at all as a point of information and/or elucidation. You have a habit of writing in that manner, and while it may be acceptable to some, considering your profession, my opinion is that it will always result in both of us talking past each other. I will stay pat on my thoughts and opinion."

That's too bad. You can lead a horse to water...
Unfortunately, I cannot correct all the misinformation posted on the net. I do wish to know the facts from those in the know and possibly one who "led the charge."
So: Do NGC and PCGS knock down a coin's actual grade condition when they say it is cleaned? I see a great many NGC & PCGS coins slabbed as Unc details "cleaned." Are they Mint State?

PS I'm not interested in what anyone here thinks about the way I post. I am interested in the exchange of correct info and not [self edit].

 

Not directly at you, @Kevin Farley, but if a person is buying expensive coins raw,
1. He had better know what he is doing, (knows grading backwards and forwards, can spot cleanings, alterations, and fakes.)
2. Accept that there are still risks!

I'm not trying to be a snot. I've had my bumps, certainly do not consider myself an expert in anything, and will seldom pay more than $200 for a raw coin, just too many pitfalls out there.

 

once again i'll make it simple people

send coin into grading company you are paying them for their opinion on a coin, whatever they put on the coin is the paid opinion you asked them to give

you ask and got a paid opinion yeah may not be what you wanted but who is the one who wanted a paid opinion in the first place?

doesn't seem that hard to understand the concept but then again some are never happy unless they get what they think is right despite the facts saying otherwise

 

I've done them both as well with the even money $150 membership, they definitely lag behind with what they offer for it. I really don't get why they never give out their boxes on submissions like PCGS does either, but I also strongly prefer the PCGS holder

 

Yes a grade is a professional opinion... No, the professional is not "always" right, it is an opinion. I generaly prefer raw coins but the reason I buy so many slabbed is simple... I am NOT an expert in spotting fakes/cleaning nor in grading coins (I consider myself to be well educated but not expert) That is what i depend on the TPGs for... "IS IT REAL" or "IS IT SUCH AND SUCH VARIETY" and 99.9% of the time all 4 of the big boys get it right.. As for the Grade I don't give a rats tushy.. what matters is "I" like the coin and that it will look good in my collection. That is my opinion and the only one that counts

 

Not to mention CU went private again this year for over a 900 million dollar valuation

Pretty much here you'll here NGC is better because thats what their collections are. Realistically for world coins it depends on the country. Some countries NGC is better others PCGS is better. As a couple examples NGC has eastern Europe, PCGS has Australia/Mexico/GB/Japan. A lot of world coins are cheap enough that there's not a major difference and many countries the difference is small but you can see it in the markets if you search around

 

That is fine.
So, which coin was I referring to?

 

Do you think there should be a set criteria for being certified as a Professional Numismatist Grader, and identification as a professional Grader? Do you think that such requirements should be uniform across any and all TPGs and 4PGs?

 

That's a shame, it's a generous offer that doesn't cost you much and might be really interesting IMO. Heck, your views might be confirmed, worst case scenario they aren't, and that's part of the learning curve - for me anyway. I hope you will reconsider. In case you didn't know, Insider is a senior grader with lots of outstanding experience who is currently at ICG.

 

In general not everyone actually wants to learn. It's much easier to just trash the company and pretend it's some big inside scam for friends than for someone to admit their skills just arent very good

 

At this point there are 2 seperate grading systems being used though still called the "same".. PCGS and NGC (to a slightly lesser degree) Grade on a Market scale while ANACS and ICG use the more accurate Technical scale. Market scale is a matter of opinion and always will be. Technical scale on the other hand is based on "fact" and could and should be "certifiable" for professionals. Until the 2 scales are seperated there will always be a difference in how one company grades vs another..