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<p>[QUOTE="EWC3, post: 3533319, member: 93416"]Can anyone assist concerning the existance of <u>any</u> ancient text regarding the basic Roman (or Greek) units of small weight?</p><p><br /></p><p>Very clearly the Roman ounce was 6 solidi of 24 carat/siliquae, so c.27g/144 – thus a carat of c. 0.188g</p><p><br /></p><p>I append the text of Isildore of Seville – but that was written after 600 AD.</p><p><br /></p><p>From that we find his smaller weight c. 600 AD was a “lentil” which was about <u>0.07g</u></p><p><br /></p><p>I just got my wife to raid the pantry and got about 0.037 for both red and yellow modern lentils – so I suppose 0.07g might (?) be OK for ancient ones of some type…… Odd that Isidore did not use grains, like near everyone else, (the various version being in the range c. 0.045 to 0.065)</p><p><br /></p><p>Anyhow - let see how that compares with other cultures</p><p><br /></p><p>The Babylonians were working down to the “half grain” - c. 0.023g, deep into pre-history. Already much smaller than any Roman weight I saw mentioned</p><p><br /></p><p>The ancient Hindus seem to figured coin weight down to what they called (in translation) “white mustard seeds” which were about 0.0024g (about 30 times smaller than Isidore's “lentil”)</p><p><br /></p><p>The ancient Chinese figured coin weight down a to millet seed defined at c. 0.0066g. (about 10 times smaller than Isidore's “lentil”)</p><p><br /></p><p>This raises two puzzles when we compare the Romans (and maybe the Greeks too?) with other cultures</p><p><br /></p><p>1) If I am correct why is there no Greek or Roman classical text laying out clearly understood small weights – or indeed anything really comprehensive about weight at all until after the fall or Rome?</p><p><br /></p><p>2) Why, even then, is the roll out of the system rudimentary in comparison to prominent Chinese and Hindu thought?</p><p><br /></p><p>Rob T</p><p><br /></p><p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</p><p><br /></p><p>Isidore wrote: A calcus (lit. “pebble”), the smallest unit of weight, is one fourth of an obol, and is equivalent to two lentils. ………....The siliqua (lit. “carob pod”) is a twenty-fourth of a solidus, and takes its name from the tree whose seed it is. 10.A ceratin is half an obol, containing one and a half siliquae. In Latin usage this is a ‘semi-obol.’ ……....An obol (obolus) weighs three siliquae,or two ceratin,or four calci.</p><p><br /></p><p>Thus: lentil x 2 = calcus, calcus x 2 = ceratin, ceratin x 2 = obol, and obol = 3 siliquae</p><p><br /></p><p><u>India </u></p><p><br /></p><p>Manu wrote, before 300 AD:</p><p><br /></p><p>The fleck of dust seen when the sun shines through a lattice is called</p><p>Trasarenu,* the primary weight. One should know that eight Trasarenus make one Liksa in weight; three Liksas, one Rajasarsapa; three Rajasarsapas, one Gaurasarsapa;* six Gaurasarsapas, one middling Yava; three Yavas, one Krsnala;</p><p><br /></p><p>then:</p><p><br /></p><p>One should know that two Krsnalas weighed together make one silver Masaka,</p><p>and sixteen Masakas, one silver Dharana, as also a Purana.</p><p><br /></p><p>We can be pretty sure Purana here just means “old coin” - and thus the Mauryan silver punchmarked coin of c. 3.43g</p><p><br /></p><p>so the Krsnala (= ratii seed) was 3.43g/32 = 0.107g</p><p><br /></p><p>the Trasarenu was surely theoretical only but</p><p><br /></p><p>8 x 3 x 3 x 6 x 3 = 1,296 thus the “atom” or Trasarenu was 0.000083</p><p><br /></p><p>However at a practical level - the Arthashatra tells us the silver dharana of 16 mashakas had 88 white mustard seeds to the mashaka</p><p><br /></p><p>3.43g/16 = 0.21g/88 = <u>0.0024g</u> thus 30 times smaller than the 600 AD Roman lentil</p><p><br /></p><p><u>China</u></p><p><br /></p><p>The smallest practical Ancient Chinese weight was the millet seed defined in the Han shu as going 1200 to the half liang.</p><p><br /></p><p>Or elsewhere the same the liang = 24 zhu = 10 lei = 10 millet seeds. As the Han liang was about 15.8g thus the millet seed was <u>0.0066g</u> so 1/10 of the calculus[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="EWC3, post: 3533319, member: 93416"]Can anyone assist concerning the existance of [U]any[/U] ancient text regarding the basic Roman (or Greek) units of small weight? Very clearly the Roman ounce was 6 solidi of 24 carat/siliquae, so c.27g/144 – thus a carat of c. 0.188g I append the text of Isildore of Seville – but that was written after 600 AD. From that we find his smaller weight c. 600 AD was a “lentil” which was about [U]0.07g[/U] I just got my wife to raid the pantry and got about 0.037 for both red and yellow modern lentils – so I suppose 0.07g might (?) be OK for ancient ones of some type…… Odd that Isidore did not use grains, like near everyone else, (the various version being in the range c. 0.045 to 0.065) Anyhow - let see how that compares with other cultures The Babylonians were working down to the “half grain” - c. 0.023g, deep into pre-history. Already much smaller than any Roman weight I saw mentioned The ancient Hindus seem to figured coin weight down to what they called (in translation) “white mustard seeds” which were about 0.0024g (about 30 times smaller than Isidore's “lentil”) The ancient Chinese figured coin weight down a to millet seed defined at c. 0.0066g. (about 10 times smaller than Isidore's “lentil”) This raises two puzzles when we compare the Romans (and maybe the Greeks too?) with other cultures 1) If I am correct why is there no Greek or Roman classical text laying out clearly understood small weights – or indeed anything really comprehensive about weight at all until after the fall or Rome? 2) Why, even then, is the roll out of the system rudimentary in comparison to prominent Chinese and Hindu thought? Rob T ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Isidore wrote: A calcus (lit. “pebble”), the smallest unit of weight, is one fourth of an obol, and is equivalent to two lentils. ………....The siliqua (lit. “carob pod”) is a twenty-fourth of a solidus, and takes its name from the tree whose seed it is. 10.A ceratin is half an obol, containing one and a half siliquae. In Latin usage this is a ‘semi-obol.’ ……....An obol (obolus) weighs three siliquae,or two ceratin,or four calci. Thus: lentil x 2 = calcus, calcus x 2 = ceratin, ceratin x 2 = obol, and obol = 3 siliquae [U]India [/U] Manu wrote, before 300 AD: The fleck of dust seen when the sun shines through a lattice is called Trasarenu,* the primary weight. One should know that eight Trasarenus make one Liksa in weight; three Liksas, one Rajasarsapa; three Rajasarsapas, one Gaurasarsapa;* six Gaurasarsapas, one middling Yava; three Yavas, one Krsnala; then: One should know that two Krsnalas weighed together make one silver Masaka, and sixteen Masakas, one silver Dharana, as also a Purana. We can be pretty sure Purana here just means “old coin” - and thus the Mauryan silver punchmarked coin of c. 3.43g so the Krsnala (= ratii seed) was 3.43g/32 = 0.107g the Trasarenu was surely theoretical only but 8 x 3 x 3 x 6 x 3 = 1,296 thus the “atom” or Trasarenu was 0.000083 However at a practical level - the Arthashatra tells us the silver dharana of 16 mashakas had 88 white mustard seeds to the mashaka 3.43g/16 = 0.21g/88 = [U]0.0024g[/U] thus 30 times smaller than the 600 AD Roman lentil [U]China[/U] The smallest practical Ancient Chinese weight was the millet seed defined in the Han shu as going 1200 to the half liang. Or elsewhere the same the liang = 24 zhu = 10 lei = 10 millet seeds. As the Han liang was about 15.8g thus the millet seed was [U]0.0066g[/U] so 1/10 of the calculus[/QUOTE]
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