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<p>[QUOTE="gmarguli, post: 8310466, member: 246"]One of the problems with using "proof characteristics" to declare something a proof is that you're going to run into situations like this, where most collectors who don't have a lot of knowledge in the specific area will see PL and cameo and say proof. Even experts do this sometimes. </p><p><br /></p><p>Looking through old auction catalogs you can find lots of 19th century US coins that were sold as proofs because they had sharp strikes and deep PL surfaces, and sometimes cameo contrast. However, today we know with certainty that they are MS because they don't match the known die characteristics of the proofs. </p><p><br /></p><p>Take this coin with a sharp strike, PL surfaces, and deep cameo contrast. Many people would instantly say proof, but it's not. It's 100% MS. </p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1471021[/ATTACH] </p><p><br /></p><p>Here is what a proof looks like, and you can easily see the difference.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1471023[/ATTACH] </p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>If you were to physically compare OP's coins to actual 1985 Swiss proofs, I believe you'd easily see the difference. Both have nice strikes, both are PL, both have cameo contrast, but they will not look the same. The surfaces on the proof will be more watery and the cameo have a more uniform, thicker frost.</p><p><br /></p><p>Unfortunately, many times the cameo/PL look confuses even the best. Take these 3 coins. Full deep cameo contrast and DMPL mirrors. All 3 are graded PCGS PR69 DCAM. All 3 are MS. Other than the fact that excluding the cameo/PL they don't look like proofs, I know they are MS as I took them out of German Mint Sets. </p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1471026[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="gmarguli, post: 8310466, member: 246"]One of the problems with using "proof characteristics" to declare something a proof is that you're going to run into situations like this, where most collectors who don't have a lot of knowledge in the specific area will see PL and cameo and say proof. Even experts do this sometimes. Looking through old auction catalogs you can find lots of 19th century US coins that were sold as proofs because they had sharp strikes and deep PL surfaces, and sometimes cameo contrast. However, today we know with certainty that they are MS because they don't match the known die characteristics of the proofs. Take this coin with a sharp strike, PL surfaces, and deep cameo contrast. Many people would instantly say proof, but it's not. It's 100% MS. [ATTACH=full]1471021[/ATTACH] Here is what a proof looks like, and you can easily see the difference. [ATTACH=full]1471023[/ATTACH] If you were to physically compare OP's coins to actual 1985 Swiss proofs, I believe you'd easily see the difference. Both have nice strikes, both are PL, both have cameo contrast, but they will not look the same. The surfaces on the proof will be more watery and the cameo have a more uniform, thicker frost. Unfortunately, many times the cameo/PL look confuses even the best. Take these 3 coins. Full deep cameo contrast and DMPL mirrors. All 3 are graded PCGS PR69 DCAM. All 3 are MS. Other than the fact that excluding the cameo/PL they don't look like proofs, I know they are MS as I took them out of German Mint Sets. [ATTACH=full]1471026[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
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