Susa (not John Philip)

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Parthicus, Sep 1, 2019.

  1. Parthicus

    Parthicus Well-Known Member

    Another summer auction win:
    Orodes II Susa.jpg
    Parthian Kingdom. AR drachm (3.42 g, 20 mm). Orodes II (57-38 BC). Susa mint. Obverse: Diademed bust left, crescent behind. Reverse: Seated archer surrounded by slightly blundered standard 7-line Greek legend, mint symbols above and below bow. Sellwood 46.22, Shore 238. This coin: Pars Coins Auction 2, lot 263 (July 15, 2019).

    (Note: The write-up below contains text recycled from one of my previous posts. Reduce, reuse, recycle.)

    Orodes II was a son of the Parthian king Phraates III. Around 57 BC, he teamed up with his brother Mithradates III (or IV, by the latest reckoning) to murder their father and seize power. The brothers soon quarreled, and after a couple of years Orodes II was able to defeat and kill his brother and claim the throne uncontested. He fought several times against Rome, most importantly the Battle of Carrhae in 53 BC where the Roman Triumvir Crassus was killed. Orodes himself left the actual fighting to his subordinates, the most important of whom was a nobleman with the family name of Surena who was responsible for the victories over both Mithradates III and Crassus. Surena was enormously wealthy and addicted to luxury; he reportedly needed 200 wagons to transport all his concubines while campaigning. Orodes became jealous of Surena and fearful that he might rebel, so he ordered him executed not long after Carrhae. In 38 BC Orodes' favorite son and heir apparent Pakoros was killed fighting in Roman Syria, leaving a distraught Orodes to name one of his other sons, Phraates IV, his designated successor. This was a terrible choice. Phraates promptly killed his father, then killed all thirty of so of his brothers (and their families) to avoid potential rivals.

    I already had multiple coins of Orodes II; what attracted me to this coin (besides the nice portrait) was the scarcer mintmark. Orodes II issued drachms from many mints, probably due to his long reign during which he controlled the Iranian plateau, where most of the mints were located. In my experience, Ecbatana is the most common, followed (in rough order) by Rhagae and Mithradatkart, then Laodicea and Nisa, then Kangavar, Susa, Traxiane, Margiane and Aria. (The last three are especially rare.) Susa, in southwestern Iran, is a very ancient city, with evidence of habitation prior to 4200 BC. It is mentioned in the Bible and plays a key role in the Biblical story of Esther. It was used as the winter capital for the Parthian kings, but despite this its output of coinage was quite modest. The city was finally abandoned in 1218 after being destroyed by the Mongols. Please post your coins of Orodes II, or Susa, or whatever else is related.
     
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  3. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Nice portrait on it!

    [​IMG]
    Orodes II (57 - 38 B.C.)
    AR Drachm
    O: Diademed and draped bust left, wearing medium beard.
    R: Archer (Arsakes I) seated right on throne, holding bow; monogram below bow.
    Susa Mint
    3.5g
    20mm
    Sellwood 45.20
     
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  4. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    If people like you and Bob keep showing these Parthian beauties I may have to buy some.
     
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  5. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Nice write-up and specimen !
    The Mongols have a bad reputation. But if the city was deserted in 1218AD, at that time the Mongols had not reached western Iran yet i think. They had just began attacking the north-eastern part of the kwarezmian empire in that year.
     
  6. Parthicus

    Parthicus Well-Known Member

    Good catch! The date of 1218 for destruction of Susa by the Mongols came from the Wikipedia article on Susa:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susa
    which cites the Encyclopedia of Islam, a reputable source. But you're right, in 1218 the Mongols weren't in southwest Persia yet. Either the date is a typo, or something else is wrong.
     
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  7. Bob L.

    Bob L. Well-Known Member

    normal_3__Kam_IV_hemidrachm.jpg

    Kamnaskires IV (Elymais)
    AR hemidrachm, c. 63/2 – 54/3 BC
    Van’t Haaff 8.3.3-1.a (this coin)
    Susa mint
     
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  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Suggestion: Someone do a post explaining to those new to the subject how to distinguish the various mints of Parthian coins.

    Orodes II seems to be the common one from Susa. I got mine in 1993 and have not checked the ID since then which is dangerous considering the recent changes to so many.
    op0150bb0807.jpg

    Of the rare list, my only hit was this Sanbares (50-65 AD) AE15 from Margiane Sellwood 93.2 also from 1993 (that seems to have been the peak of my Parthian interest). Again the ID has not been compared to recent works. This photo is terrible. The coin is bad but not that bad. I'll add it to my 'get around to it list'.
    op0360bb0799.jpg
     
  9. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Well-Known Member

    Nice coin @Parthicus - here's my Orodes II of Susa - I find the portrait on this coin a bit unusual - a heavier face. It is interesting to see the coins in this post, although I haven't seen very many coins from Susa mint - the portraits seem surprisingly varied.
    Orodes II Susa.jpg
    Orodes II (57-38 B.C.) AR Drachm, Susa
    Obv: short-bearded bust left wearing diadem and pellet-ended torque, star before and crescent behind; no wart visible on forehead; circular border of pellets
    Rev: beardless archer wearing bashlyk and cloak seated right on throne, holding bow in right hand; above bow, monogram; below bow, monogram; no border; seven-line Greek inscription = ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΝ ΑΡΣΑΚΟΥ ΕΥΕΡΓΕΤΟΥ ΔΙΚΑΙΟΥ ΕΠΙΦΑΝΟΥΣ ΦΙΛΕΛΛΗΝΟΣ
    Ref: Sellwood 47.22 - Note: Sellwood 47.20-47.26 are all drachms of Orodes II from Susa and are all differentiated by the monograms above and below the bow on the reverse. @dougsmit's coin looks like 47.21 to me.


    "Susa is situated in the interior, upon the river Choaspes, beyond the bridge; but the territory extends to the sea: and the sea-coast of this territory, from the borders of the Persian coast nearly as far as the mouths of the Tigris, is a distance of about 3000 stadia."
    - Strabo Geography 15.3.4


    “This is what happened during the time of Xerxes, the Xerxes who ruled over 127 provinces stretching from India to Cush : At that time King Xerxes reigned from his royal throne in the citadel of Susa, and in the third year of his reign he gave a banquet for all his nobles and officials. The military leaders of Persia and Media, the princes, and the nobles of the provinces were present. For a full 180 days he displayed the vast wealth of his kingdom and the splendor and glory of his majesty. When these days were over, the king gave a banquet, lasting seven days, in the enclosed garden of the king’s palace, for all the people from the least to the greatest who were in the citadel of Susa.”
    - Esther 1:2-5

    Excavations of Susa by M.A. Dieulafoy 1884-1886 found treasures from the palace built by Darius and occupied by Xerxes. Treasures from Susa can be viewed today in the Louvre in Paris.
     
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  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    That is what I had on my old file card. hi post made me get out Sellwood. I would have called Mat's coin as 4.6 Ekbatana from the monogram but fail to see which differences outrank others.

    On what do they base the mint assignments?
     
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  11. Bob L.

    Bob L. Well-Known Member

    A few tidbits about Parthian mints…

    1. Over the course of Parthia’s history there were more than a dozen mints, including traveling court mints, which produced coins. Coins produced at the eastern mints like Mithradatkart often exhibit an especially crude but interesting style – they can get pretty weird looking.

    2. Parthian tetradrachms were minted almost exclusively at Seleucia.

    3. On some rare early first century BC drachms from Parthia’s eastern territories, mint names were written out as an extra line on the right reverse (e.g. Aria, Nisa, Margianae, Rhagae, and “Katactpateia” – indicating traveling mints).

    4. Mint monograms began appearing below Arsakes’ bow on the reverse of drachms starting around 80 BC. The best online source for identifying Parthian mint monograms is Alwin’s page here: http://parthika.fr/Ateliers.html

    5. By the middle of the first century AD, Ekbatana’s symbol began appearing on almost all Parthian drachms. Thus by that time it had lost its significance as an actual indicator of mint location. A similar thing happened in Elymais, an occasionally rebellious, occasionally independent subkingdom within Parthian territory. On some early Elymaean coins a horse head symbol indicated minting at Susa, and an anchor symbol indicated Seleucia on the Hedyphon (not to be confused with Seleucia on the Tigris, where Parthian tets were minted). Just as Ekbatana’s mint symbol eventually became standardized on Parthian coins, the Elymaean anchor (derived from the Seleucid anchor) became ubiquitous on later coins from Elymais, no matter which Elymaean mint (there were likely only two or three) they were produced at.
     
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  12. Bob L.

    Bob L. Well-Known Member

    Mat, your call on the mint may be correct, but I wonder if the coin may be from the Court at Ekbatana, Sellwood 45.10. Do you think the monogram has a small loop at the top of the vertical? That seems to be the only difference between the two according to Sellwood.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  13. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Well-Known Member

    Interesting to see the mint from Mat's coin as "ATELIERS ITINÉRANTS" (roaming mints) on the page you reference from Alwin.

    These are tricky - the legends and direction of the words support several varieties
    ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΝ ΑΡΣΑΚΟΥ ΕΥΕΡΓΕΤΟΥ ΔΙΚΑΙΟΥ ΕΠΙΦΑΝΟΥΣ ΦΙΛΕΛΛΗΝΟΣ

    I think a crescent is visible (obverse behind head), and unless I am misreading, is not found on 45.20 or 45.10 and is found on both 46.9 (Ecbatana) and 46.11 (Rhagae). The extra dot at the top of the monogram leaves me uncertain between the two.
     
  14. Bob L.

    Bob L. Well-Known Member

    Good catch. I agree, likely either the court of Ekbatana or Rhagae.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  15. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    So should I update it as "roaming mints"?
     
  16. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Well-Known Member

    I don't have a better explanation - I do wonder how well coins compare to the clearly differentiated drawings from Sellwood. The example coins on this site (@Charax) are very E shaped for 46.9 and 46.11. IMG_1555.jpg KATA ETPATEIA, translates to "on campaign"
    Here's one of my coins in this monogram family, Sellwood legend ii, no crescent - I put it down as Sellwood 45.10 (Ecbatana) and as the E shape - although more Σ-like than Mat's coin. Orodes II Ecbatana.jpg
    It can be interesting to look at Sellwood's coins, 45.20 can be found here on page 100 lot 426. 45.20 looks very Σ-like and is listed as Susa and as the coin on the cover of Sellwood's book (1980 2nd Edition).

    Useful auction catalogs (Sunrise Collection, Sellwood Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV)

    Sellwood linked monograms to city names, Susa was left as "?" with many associated monograms.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  17. Bob L.

    Bob L. Well-Known Member

    Mat, the coin seems to have been produced by the court mint of either Ekbatana (Ecbatana) or Rhagae - according to Sellwood. That's how I would list it.

    Good info above, Sulla80. Thanks. Looks like you quoted me before I edited that post - the edit was based on seeing a number of examples posted online that seem to have "E's" where Sellwood suggested there should be epsilons.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  18. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    It was the second Parthian I ever got & it was with John A. auction/attribution. I am still very much a newb to them.

    Thanks for the updated information.
     
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