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Sulla 84-83 BC Denarius interpretation
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<p>[QUOTE="willkerrs, post: 3084618, member: 95456"]I have to wonder why we're so certain that this Denarius represents Pompey's ring, and not another signet of L. Cornelius Sulla (the other signet being his 'Capture of Jugurtha' signet, also minted as a coin by F. Sulla in 56 BC - see Crawford 426/1 posted earlier in the thread)</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Cassius Dio (42.18.3) says: "Even when he [Pompey] had died, they did not believe it for a long time, not, in fact, until they saw his seal-ring that had been sent; it had three trophies carved on it, as had that of Sulla." <font size="3">(Source: <a href="http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/cassius_dio/42*.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/cassius_dio/42*.html" rel="nofollow">http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/cassius_dio/42*.html</a>)</font></p><p><font size="3"><br /></font></p><p><font size="4">So what are we to make of that? How are we so sure the signet of Sulla isn't being reproduced? </font></p><p><font size="4"><br /></font></p><p><font size="4"><br /></font></p><p><font size="4">I know that Pompey was more closely associated with three trophies at the time because of his victories over 'the three continents'. I don't doubt that Crawford 426/4a (obv: head of Hercules wearing lion-skin / rev: globe with three small wreaths, and one large one - see image below) refers to to Pompey, considering his own attempts to position himself alongside </font><font size="3">(if not above!) </font><font size="4">Alexander the Great </font><font size="3">(<font size="3">For example, Appian, <i>Mithradatic Wars</i> 17.117, referring to Pompey's triumph of 61 BC, says: "Pompey himself was borne in a chariot studded with gems, wearing, it was said, a cloak of Alexander the Great, if any one can believe that. (Source: <a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0230:text=Mith.:chapter=17&highlight=cloak" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0230:text=Mith.:chapter=17&highlight=cloak" rel="nofollow">http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0230:text=Mith.:chapter=17&highlight=cloak</a>) Alexander the Great's association with Hercules is well known, so needs no unpacking here, and therefore it's not a leap of the imagination to suggest that Alexander the Great and/or Hercules, and Pompey are being conflated and/or compared through this coin. Consider also if we are to believe 'Pompey the Great' wasn't just a mocking name, but one Pompey himself used)</font>,</font><font size="4"> amongst others AND Pompey's association with the 'three victories'.</font></p><p><font size="4"><br /></font></p><p><font size="4">Hence, the coin almost certainly refers to Pompey in two ways - his victory over the 'three continents', and his apparent attempt to outdo Alexander the Great and/or Hercules (amongst others).</font></p><p><font size="4"><br /></font></p><p><font size="4">[ATTACH=full]777390[/ATTACH] </font></p><p><font size="3">Crawford 426/4a (Source: <a href="http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-426.4a" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-426.4a" rel="nofollow">http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-426.4a</a>)</font></p><p><font size="4"><br /></font></p><p><font size="4">--------------------</font></p><p><br /></p><p>To get back to the original point - Whilst it's clear that F. Sulla minted in 56 BC issues relating to both his father, L. Cornelius Sulla, and his father-in-law, Pompey, how are we so sure that the 'Three Trophies' Denarius (Crawford 426/3) refers to the signet ring of Pompey and not one of Sulla if, as Cassius Dio tells us, they both had signets with three trophies?</p><p><font size="3"><br /></font></p><p><font size="3"></font>[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="willkerrs, post: 3084618, member: 95456"]I have to wonder why we're so certain that this Denarius represents Pompey's ring, and not another signet of L. Cornelius Sulla (the other signet being his 'Capture of Jugurtha' signet, also minted as a coin by F. Sulla in 56 BC - see Crawford 426/1 posted earlier in the thread) Cassius Dio (42.18.3) says: "Even when he [Pompey] had died, they did not believe it for a long time, not, in fact, until they saw his seal-ring that had been sent; it had three trophies carved on it, as had that of Sulla." [SIZE=3](Source: [url]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/cassius_dio/42*.html[/url]) [/SIZE] [SIZE=4]So what are we to make of that? How are we so sure the signet of Sulla isn't being reproduced? I know that Pompey was more closely associated with three trophies at the time because of his victories over 'the three continents'. I don't doubt that Crawford 426/4a (obv: head of Hercules wearing lion-skin / rev: globe with three small wreaths, and one large one - see image below) refers to to Pompey, considering his own attempts to position himself alongside [/SIZE][SIZE=3](if not above!) [/SIZE][SIZE=4]Alexander the Great [/SIZE][SIZE=3]([SIZE=3]For example, Appian, [I]Mithradatic Wars[/I] 17.117, referring to Pompey's triumph of 61 BC, says: "Pompey himself was borne in a chariot studded with gems, wearing, it was said, a cloak of Alexander the Great, if any one can believe that. (Source: [url]http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0230:text=Mith.:chapter=17&highlight=cloak[/url]) Alexander the Great's association with Hercules is well known, so needs no unpacking here, and therefore it's not a leap of the imagination to suggest that Alexander the Great and/or Hercules, and Pompey are being conflated and/or compared through this coin. Consider also if we are to believe 'Pompey the Great' wasn't just a mocking name, but one Pompey himself used)[/SIZE],[/SIZE][SIZE=4] amongst others AND Pompey's association with the 'three victories'. Hence, the coin almost certainly refers to Pompey in two ways - his victory over the 'three continents', and his apparent attempt to outdo Alexander the Great and/or Hercules (amongst others). [ATTACH=full]777390[/ATTACH] [/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Crawford 426/4a (Source: [url]http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-426.4a[/url])[/SIZE] [SIZE=4] --------------------[/SIZE] To get back to the original point - Whilst it's clear that F. Sulla minted in 56 BC issues relating to both his father, L. Cornelius Sulla, and his father-in-law, Pompey, how are we so sure that the 'Three Trophies' Denarius (Crawford 426/3) refers to the signet ring of Pompey and not one of Sulla if, as Cassius Dio tells us, they both had signets with three trophies? [SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/QUOTE]
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