For those who have submitted world pattern coins to TPGs, have you ever sent in documentation with the coin? I've got a rare and beautiful Hungarian pattern (1922 5 Korona) that I'm going to send in to NGC. I noticed that while the pattern type is listed in Krause, it's listed only as Pn158 (Aluminum) and Pn159 (Brass). The coin I have is nickel, however. In Magyar Erme Katalogus (Hungarian catalog), this coin is listed as pattern KE5 with the mention of strikes using 10 different metals, including nickel, along with two variations of the obverse (with and without the engraver's initials). What does NGC use as authoritative source(s) for identifying world patterns? Would it help if I sent in a copy of the page with this information? What have you all had luck doing?
I am not sure if they use the catalog you cite, but they should be able to identify the coin as nickel, rather than aluminum or brass. But in general, KM is the only reference they would include for a world coin, with some exceptions. Let us know how it works out!
Why would you NOT send a photocopy of that page? Might help NGC find an auction realization, or other unexpected benefit.
I would tend to agree with you, but there's perhaps the off chance that they already use that catalog, and the implication that they don't have enough expertise on these patterns (I really don't know if that's the case, but Krause is definitely lacking). NGC has been good to me on grading coins for this set.
Easy to fix. Send the page, and write in the margin, "I don't know if this is the most recent catalog listing for this item..." Then you are perceived as being either helpful or dumb, both qualities which they admire in customers.
You know its rare and beautiful, you know its nickel. Why would you pay someone else to tell you what you already know.
Same reason anyone gets anything slabbed. To protect the coin and make it safer to handle, to enhance the liquidity, and so that if something happens to me, an extremely rare Karoly IV korona pattern doesn't get chucked into a world coin sack and sold for ten cents.
Slabbed, probably get 1/3 more if OP ever sells. It's the common, everyday coins that I think are a waste of money to slab. edit// Yes, "enhance the liquidity" -- a good phrase to remember.
Indeed! I'm also guilty of slabbing a few cheap coins for this set that probably weren't worth it, but they were all MS65+. This pattern, however, is well worth slabbing. The reign of Karoly IV (1916-1922), the last King of Hungary, was very brief and saw few coin issues. Only three small denominations were released for circulation and they were all struck in iron. There was also one exceptionally rare gold issue in 1918, the year he renounced participation in affairs of the state (but did not abdicate). There were four small denomination patterns created during the early period of his reign, dated 1916-1918, that were never struck for circulation. Karoly attempted to re-establish monarchist power twice between 1918 and 1922. After the second attempt in 1921 he was exiled to the island of Madeira where he would die a year later due to complications from pneumonia. During his attempts to reclaim power, specimens were struck of two additional patterns dated 1922: one royalist 5 korona pattern, and one small denomination off-metal strike in brass of an existing type. These patterns were the last coins struck under the Hungarian monarchy. The example I have is of the 5 korona, but all of the Karoly IV patterns are extremely scarce, especially since most were struck in iron.
I don`t know anyone that get coins slabbed. Coins placed in an appropriate capsule with a small sticker or label are easy to handle and are protected, and all the relevant information is to hand. The TGP`s are obtaining their expert opinion from the same sources you are. Its a con game and has been a con game for quite some time in the gullible USA.
Going with your argument, fiat currency is itself a con game. Gullible people believing their currency has value set by supply and demand! With the majority of transactions being sight unseen due to the internet, knowing that a professional has certified and graded the coin greatly reduces purchase risk over a similar coin with a hand-made label. This reduction in risk increases demand which leads to higher realized prices. That is simply a fact. If I can pay less than $20 to slab a coin, but realize more than a $20 gain when selling it, then that's what I'm going to do.
"The TGP`s are obtaining their expert opinion from the same sources you are..." Not true. Never been true. You are paying for in-house expertise, and more importantly, a common standard that all numismatists understand and support. Personally, I have NEVER had a coin slabbed, not even one, but then I never had a reason to. Some of the coins and paper money I consigned to Stack's, they insisted on slabbing, but they took care of the details, and I just paid a discounted bill. My few remaining coin collections only have to suit ME, not a grandstand full of nitpickers. Anyhow, Stack's advice paid off, the items brought terrific prices (in 2012).
Doesn't sound like you've collected coins in the '60's when every dealer and buyer had a different grade for a coin , which would change again depending if it was being sold or bought . Even the best of graders would get frustrated . Though not perfect by a long shot , the tpgs do have a place in todays market , especially in buying on the internet . And please don't tell me I should learn to grade as I'm actually quite good on the series I collect .
I`ve collected world coins since 1961 and never bought any of them from dealers, I also never had this American obsession with grades. I never wanted anyone else to tell me what I had nor would I have paid for it, I already knew. Makes you wonder how collectors in the US got by before the 1986 slabbing con began. It must have been terrible to discover ones fellow collector had a pocket change Dime with a micro of difference invisible to the naked eye. The vast majority of the rest of the worlds collectors can get by without these TPG`s why can`t the USA , after all the coinage and denominations have hardly changed for decades. I see the lemmings have also fallen for the even greater con of CAC. Its like taking candy from a baby.
No matter how much you want to Davey-dump on us Colonials, coin collecting is bigger in the US than in any other country. Look at any search engine for the 10 most valuable coins in the world and 9 of them will be US. Perhaps the Mother Country will catch up to us soon : - )
Coin collecting in the rest of the world is bigger and older than the US. The 10 most valuable coins were bought by people with more money than sense.
Coin collecting is OBVIOUSLY bigger and older in the rest of the world than it is in the US...however, name another country that has more...even more per capita collectors. As far as your opinion as to the buyers of the 10 most valuable coins, what you say may be true, but it shows where the focus is.
How do you know how many coin collectors are in each country, they don`t have to register or get a licence, I have met many hundreds of collectors in my own area that I have bought from, they were not members of any clubs or societies, many just hoarded collections. Over here we don`t have any TV channels devoted to ripping off gullible punters with graded & slabbed pocket change. As with most things biggest is not always best.
Dave, mostly agree with you that biggest is not always the best, and I am not in love with slabbing coins even with little footballs. However I am just speaking my opinion from my observations...exactly as you are doing.