Sometimes Third Party Grading (TPG) is Mystifying

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Al Kowsky, Aug 15, 2020.

  1. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Supporter! Supporter

    The coin pictured below is being offered for auction this weekend by G.C., & has been graded by PCGS, considered a conservative TPG company. Now ask yourselves if this were an ancient Roman coin how would you grade it o_O? Pictured below the Wass Molitor $10 gold coin is an ancient Roman coin I've posted a number of times for comparison. Some collectors might scoff at this comparison :p, however, I believe it's legitimate. The Wass Molitor $10 coin is a "sea salvage" coin that has, without doubt, been cleaned. The Roman solidus is most likely a "burial" coin that has, without doubt, been cleaned. Many collectors of ancient coins see no point in grading them, but I find grading of ancient coins can be helpful especially if strike and surface are considered ;).

    868420-1 (2).jpg
    W.M. & Co. $10, 1855.jpg

    2491172-002 insert.JPG
    Honorius Solidus, Ravina Mint.jpg
     
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  3. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Supporter! Supporter

    I know nothing about modern coins and grading... so I would need to be walked through the comparison to understand your point.
    However If that would take too long to explain - I get it.
     
  4. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Supporter! Supporter

    Let's look at it another way :wideyed:. Pretend both coins are ancient. Which coin appears to have been graded more accurately o_O?
     
  5. chascat

    chascat Well-Known Member

    I get your point...should be a flip flop.
     
  6. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Well-Known Member

    You are basically comparing an automobile and a tangerine. Yes, both have an inside and an outside, but everything else about them is different.
     
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  7. 999fine

    999fine New Member

    I know nothing about automobiles and tangerines... so I would need to be walked through the comparison to understand your point.
    However If that would take too long to explain - I get it. :)
     
  8. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths Supporter

    TPG might be a mystery but not as much as some of the replies:)!
     
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  9. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    I am lost. I have no reference points because, like you said in your OP, I am one who does not use, care, or understand the grading scales.

    So, the first coin would be Bullion value for me, and some cool collectibility being CA $10. The second coin is, yeah, cool History. And, honestly, I do not look at the numbers.

    :)
     
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  10. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Supporter! Supporter

    N.S.K., Thanks, I'm glad some people "get it" :D!
     
  11. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..both are gold(coins)....and there the similarity ends....:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
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  12. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    I agree with ominus1. Now, I too would like to know what you are looking for in our replies? Thanks and good luck
     
  13. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Well-Known Member

    I think what the OP is looking for is some way to relate PCGS' Sheldon-70 grading for coins to NGC's grading system for Ancients.

    If you figure it out, you will be the first...
     
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  14. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Supporter! Supporter

    Although I appreciate the sarcasm I still don't know what PGCS AU53 means??

    If you want to be unhelpful and rude - I get it.
     
  15. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Supporter! Supporter

    I'm sorry, I didn't know you were new to coin collecting. If you go to the PCGS website or any other TPG service website, they explain all the nomenclature used to grade coins.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  16. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Well-Known Member

    Everything that went into the manufacture of those two objects is different. The technology of mining, metal refining, preparing "blanks or flans", die making, die materials, stamping of the coins (hand vs. steam), etc. is completely different over the 1,500 years.

    There are YouTube videos of people trying to recreate the ancient technology, here's a short one:



    In addition, the grading scales used in the two examples differ. One attempts to roll up all of the information about the coin's state into a single number. The other has three data values.

    Relating them is very difficult if not impossible.
     
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  17. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Supporter! Supporter

    All the TPG companies use the Brown & Dunn grading system that came about in the 1950s. Later numerical values were added ranging from 70 to 1. NGC also uses Brown & Dunn grading for their ancient coins that have numerical equivalents too. PCGS has attempted to refine quality of strike on many modern coins like Franklin halves (FBL), & Jefferson nickels (FS). It's not impossible or really that difficult to equate an ancient coin to a U.S. coin in terms of grading. It takes exposure & experience.
     
  18. TJC

    TJC Well-Known Member

    The US $10 gold is not an AU "About Uncirculated" coin;I would would say high VF at best even with a probable week strike.
    The Horonius I would grade at a high AU with the strike 4/5 & surface 5/5 with worn dies likely.
    The third party grading companies are in opinion inconsistent in their grading. Drives me crazy to see the obvious mistakes they too often make. If they followed their own rules better I would be happier with them. As the old saying goes, "buy the coin, not the holder".
    Many ancient collectors do not bother with or like TPG's. Personally, concerning ancients, I do not care if the coin is in a holder or not. I can always breaking out if want to.
     
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  19. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Supporter! Supporter

    TJC, You hit the nail on the head :D! Grading the $10 gold coin AU53 is absurd :wacky:. Aside from too much wear for an AU the coin has hundreds of micro nicks on the surface from being carried as pocket change. I was shocked looking at the photo :jawdrop:. I think PCGS & NGC can get sloppy at times by handling huge volumes of coins.
     
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  20. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    Me too. When contemplating a coin purchase the criteria I use are ..... do I like it, is it suitable for my collection and can I afford it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
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  21. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    EXACTLY
     
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