Sold on ebay, full disclosure & pics.....

Discussion in 'What's it Worth' started by Tukas, Mar 11, 2011.

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  1. Tukas

    Tukas New Member

    Hi there,
    I was waiting for his/her response to return it to me. I got a SNAD instead. I did escalate it. They sided with the buyer. Still waiting for the return.
     
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  3. thecigarnut

    thecigarnut Member

    Merc you are 100% entitled to your opinion as you stated - but the downfall to that is the Federal court system has proven otherwise. Ebay takes certain initiatives that are 100% illegal but some people do not have the time, patience, money or knowledge to fight them - that is the fault of the unenlightened and no one else. Remember the old 'Two wrongs don't make a right'? I will talk to my lawyer today to get some previous cases to aid you in your research to find the proper answer, although given your previous statements, I doubt much research has been done up to this point.
     
  4. redwin117

    redwin117 Junior Member

    Please make it sure you get the same coin undamaged. You can still able to win on this case if he/she return to you a damage coin or different coin.
    That's all.
     
  5. thecigarnut

    thecigarnut Member

    Talked to my lawyer, he is going to pull up some stuff for me later this evening. He made a mention though - the buyer is also held liable at this point for falsifying a contractual agreement, negligence in respect to the auction proceedings, and can also be sued by the 2nd highest bidder who felt that the coin value was truly what they had offered and were willing to accept. The highest bidder denied them the ability to a proper purchase, knowingly inflated the price (to outbid the other) with knowledge that they had the ability to recant their purchase. This is theft at most and a con game at least.

    This goes back to what I said earlier - an item is ONLY worth what someone is willing to pay for it, in regards to currency it is worth face value (1964 half dollar is worth 50 cents, even though the melt/rarity value is higher). Item value is based upon perception and is a debatable subject (antique dealers and auction houses know this) that has caused many a headache in the private and even business sectors. Each party MUST be entitled to the EXACT same rules and regulations - there can not be favoritism on either side or else we see negative issues arise such as this 'fool' who is now stomping their feet because they 'got a bad deal' - factual information (not opinions) is what drives laws.
     
  6. T-Bone0804

    T-Bone0804 Junior Member

    I personally don't think you were trying to defraud anyone... But eBay does ask if the item you're selling is GENUINE. in your case, even though you made it clear you didn't know if the coin was real, the fact that you don't KNOW 100% means you shouldn't have listed it in the first place. We can all argue about wether the buyer was wrong or right, but in the end, you didn't adhere to eBay policy as a seller, and per the contract you agreed to with eBay you owed the buyer a refund from the beginning. A feel for you, but you are 100% in the wrong on this one. Buyer beware doesn't apply when you don't follow the rules.
     
  7. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    Gee! Someone else who actually reads the rules
     
  8. thecigarnut

    thecigarnut Member

    T-bone - just to play the devils advocate (I agree with you to a certain aspect though! :) ) - lets say a seller unknowingly misrepresents a coin and starts the bidding at a dollar, the bid goes up to 20 dollars and then after the auction closes someone contacts the seller and informs them the true value may be over 500 dollars. The seller is unable to withdraw the item in hopes of selling the item at fair market value. This is the same issue, the seller represented the item to the best of their knowledge/ability - specifically said (in different words) this is an amateurs assessment and is not professionally certified.

    The Coin is GENUINE - it is a real penny which happens to be the cost that the bidding started at. The coin is not 100% mint quality and does contain irregularities which in literal terms is an 'error' by comparison. The seller DID adhere to all the rules of ebay - I suggest you read http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/policies.html before you jump to conclusions - RLM you as well.

    Provide a clear, honest, and accurate description about the item.

    They seller did, if those words were mistakenly interpreted or the buyer 'assumed' it was something other than the extremely long, detailed description along with multiple pictures how can you find fault with the seller?
     
  9. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    Sales where you say something MAY be this or MAY NOT be that are not allowed. You must be specific. It either is or it isn't and if you even hint that an item is something that it is not... or ambiguous about what exactly you are selling... which is the case here... SNAD... you loose every time. I would consider RLM to be one of the more knowledgeable members when it comes to EBay's polcies.
     
  10. thecigarnut

    thecigarnut Member

    Lost, I am not denying RLM's experience or knowledge but I am saying in this specific situation the coin, a penny, was represented as such and opened at face value. The buyer is what drove the price up - NOT the seller or their multiple pictures giving detailed information for the buyer to scrutinize (regardless of any interpretation of the English language there may be). We have to stop thinking that the consumer needs their hand held at every corner and just because the seller is the seller they are held responsible for the incompetent actions of the buyer. I have yet to have ONE PERSON respond to me with anything other than the same attitude of an old man yelling at the neighborhood kids to keep it quiet. Opinions and wishes are nice, but they do not carry financial or legal weight.

    If you can provide direct and specific facts upholding you position where Ebay specifically designates a certain gradeable level of knowledge on an item as a requirement for sale I will gracefully bow out of this conversation - BUT - if that material can not be produced then the facts I have produced are still legitimate.

    For your reference (since I think the interpretation of the English language is more of the issue here)

    Honesty
    1. Marked by or displaying integrity; upright
    2. Not deceptive or fraudulent; genuine: honest weight.
    3. Equitable; fair: honest wages for an honest day's work.
    4. a. Characterized by truth; not false: honest reporting.
    b. Sincere; frank: an honest critique.


    And to add a little to that

    KNOWLEDGE. Information as to a fact.
    2. Many acts are perfectly innocent when the party performing them is not aware of certain circumstances attending them for example, a man may pass a counterfeit note and be guiltless, if he did not know it was so he may receive stolen goods if he were not aware of the fact that they were stolen. In these and the like cases it is the guilty knowledge which makes the crime. See, as to the manner of proving guilty knowledge, Arch. Cr. Pl. 110, 111. Vide Animal. Dog; Evidence ignorance; Scienter.


    Side note - Are most if not all of you Americans? Do you not know your rights or the laws we live under? I am beyond shocked that a 26 year old Jar Head does not have a competent equal to discuss this issue without subjecting themselves to acts of slander or irrational comments. Opinions are opinions and should be left as such - this topic on the other hand is about factual events that are causing a negative financial burden on (not only a fellow CT member) someone who made a proper exchange of goods for finances.

    Lost or RLM - please provide the previously stated information and I give you my word I will let this thread die.
     
  11. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    The auctions title itself is a violation. It's an insinuation that this piece is an error. There is no gray area with EBay.

    "Test Strike? Error Coin Penny Lincoln 1980 Nickle"

    He was completely honest to his knowledge. I don't deny this. Unfortunately not knowing if it is real or not is an excuse. This is EBay... You get to play by what rules they set... because after all it's their house.
     
  12. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    When you read it, I suggest you pay real close attention to;

     
  13. thecigarnut

    thecigarnut Member

    Lost - please reference my previous posts, the title line I do agree is open for a wide range of interpretations but I will try to be as literal as I possibly can (the same way the law would look at it). Test Strike followed by a question mark - I take this as an uncertain statement (which was explained in the description) which I do agree would raise an eyebrow and possibly some discussion. Error coin - true this is not a 'mint error' coin but the coin still contains errors (like I said I'm getting pretty literal lol :) ) Lincoln 1980 - it was a penny and the ending nickle I am honestly at a loss, If I remember correctly the coin displayed an image of the nickle on it.

    All I am trying to express - due diligence should be exercised by both parties. The seller - although the 'title was misleading' as some have said the images were not - if the buyer was unsure of what they were purchasing - beyond any shadow of doubt - don't bid!
     
  14. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    First off, I have replied with nothing but eBay regulations quoted. The fact that you cannot read then is not my fault.
    Second, "We have to stop thinking that the consumer needs their hand held at every corner", I agree. They have to follow the rules they agreed to when they joined eBay. Try reading them.

    Ebay does not "specifically designate a certain gradeable[sic] level of knowledge". It specifically says that is the seller's responsibility. Cited and referenced for you, but somehow I doubt you "will gracefully bow out of this conversation", but it is now yours. I am gone.
     
  15. thecigarnut

    thecigarnut Member

    RLM I do agree that the authenticity disclaimer policy does have specific information in respect to copyright or trademark information with the Verified Rights Owners (VeRO) participants - I admit my error in regards to the 'test strike?' portion, I was unaware that rhetorical questions were not allowed and I will no longer debate that specific point, you are 100% correct in respects to adding a question mark to the title.

    Now in respect to the actual item being sold, which your missing the entire point - it is an error, not a MINT ERROR (misinterpretation by the consumer), the item was offered at face value and the market drove the price up. I can see ebay requesting the first portion of the title having changes made, but the validation of the sale still remains.

    P.s. your last comment just accentuates my previous statement - You attempted a personal jab when I - as well as yourself - quoted directly from the ebay rules and regulations and then at the end you run out of the convo like you hit the nail on the head. . . . really?
     
  16. Tukas

    Tukas New Member

    I take it you are not 100% certified you are done with this thread, eh.
    You posted twice more after that comment! ROFL. :pointnlaugh:You are too funny dude.
     
  17. thecigarnut

    thecigarnut Member

    Tukas - I have to be 'that guy' for just a second - when the smoke clears I'm on your side but I must admit I was incorrect in my assumption that the posed question was allowed. The ebay rules and regulations do state that is not allowed.

    Also RLM cut and pasted a phrase you should look at -

    * Sellers can't deny or reject any knowledge of or responsibility for the authenticity or legality their items (see our authenticity disclaimers policy).

    Test strike portion being removed, you DO have an authenticated and legal PENNY that contains errors on it. I hope things work out for you in the end (Remember you can file that unauthorized withdraw claim if it happens) and to appease the CT gods and let this thread die LOL - maybe in the future keep the 'key words' out so people don't get sand in their britches. I think you did fine though :)
     
  18. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    If you call getting Neg'ed, SNAD'ed, and having the money taken out of your account fine... then yes.... you did fine.
     
  19. thecigarnut

    thecigarnut Member

    sigh . . . yes I feel they got beyond worked over and has gotten a few negative things associated to the situation that they do not deserve - but I feel they are 'doing' fine and deserve any and all corrections in their favor . . .
     
  20. Merc Crazy

    Merc Crazy Bumbling numismatic fool

    Redacted.
     
  21. BUncirculated

    BUncirculated Well-Known Member

    Authenticated by whom?

    In case you have blinders on, her description clearly states,
    If it's uncertified, it doesn't seem likely it has been authenticated.

    Again, she stated this to be an error coin, not I think it's an error, nor did she state the possibility exists that is an error, but quite clearly it is an error coin.
     
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