So when does scarcity overrule gradability

In this case of a family heirloom, my Grandfather took this coin in at his retail establishment (1909-1950) in South Texas as payment. He (we) have always known it had a smear of what seems like jewelers solder on the reverse. So it was removed from circulation sometime in the mid 20th century. Fast forward to present, PCGS no-graded this coin with the reason of solder present which could have moved metal (key word could). According to NGC website:".........first of only five S-mint issues in this series, the 1855-S boasts an original mintage of only 6,000 pieces. Most of these coins were lost to circulation, and scholars estimate that no more than 95 examples have survived in all grades....." and from the other guy's site a quote from David Akers.."...is very scarce in all grades and it actually has the fewest number of auction appearances in our 238 catalogue auction survey of any regularly issued date in the series with the exception of the 1873 Closed 3 which may or may not have been intended for circulation. The 1855-S is also tied with the 1857-S for second lowest number of auction records in unc. and it has the fewest auction records in AU. Overall, it has the lowest average grade of any date in the entire series. A quick look at auction records from 1950 to 1976 shows that no 1855-S was catalogued as better than EF since 1950."
"SURVIVAL NUMISMATIC RELATIVE RELATIVE RARITY
ESTIMATE / RARITY/ RARITY BY TYPE/ BY SERIES/
400 R-6.2 9 / 41 TIE 9 / 41 TIE"
So where does a collector draw the line of their own perception of value of a specimen due to scarcity over a TPG quorum opinion of a coin being considered un-gradable due to this above stated condition? I'm sure there is a meturagist or two in this forum that can state the melting temperature of 1855-1940's solder versus temperature to melt a 90% Gold, 10% Copper coin enough to move metal and upset the integrity the coins' features. I would appreciate any comments, facts or feelings toward my question....
see what a graded example looks like!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1855-S-Thr...=item4d7c5241bd:g:OF4AAOSwcTlblDA1:rk:10:pf:0

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I'm no expert but I agree in the decision of no grade. That being said, the only way to get a true value of that coin is to put it in an auction and see what it hammers.

 

I agree absolutely about the no grade decision. It's there, and it has to be mentioned. Come on, OP. I know ownership adds a few points, but you can't deny that severely damages the eye appeal. To answer your question, and in my humble opinion, scarcity should never overrule gradability. A coin is gradable or it is not, regardless of how many exist.

Since it is an Heirloom, it should not matter what the TPG's say.

On the other hand, if you were attempting to sell it, given its rarity, and the fact that one may not come up for sale for years, there is no question someone will pay strong for it. Quite frankly, in spite of the damage, one can't be too picky with such coins with only a handful known. Those lucky to have the opportunity to obtain a problem free example will pay even stronger for one, potentially many multiples times estimated value. Those opportunities come up but once in a blue moon.

ETA: I may be mistaken, but NGC's estimate of 95 existing in all grades is WRONG, and has not been updated, when you count the census, it's well over 300, both NGC and PCGS, and I don't think even cracked and regraded account for that many more. Also, NGC is saying 95 extant, PCGS estimates 400 exist. Quite confusing if you ask me.

Total NGC POP: 163
Total PCGS POP: 195

 

Also OP- I will add another thing. My opinion of what should be and actuality are two different things, ie, what I feel SHOULD be so and what actually is, are two completely different things. What I mean is, sometimes the TPG's WILL give a pass to a key date/significant rarity. The fact of the matter is, the line is not firmly drawn as far as what is and what isn't truly acceptable. What may be unacceptable for a common coin, may be acceptable for a rarity. I've examined plenty of key dates and rarities that I felt were "dogs" --that had such problems as cleaning, scratches, tooling, etc-- which I felt should not have straight graded, but did anyway.

 

I do know every nuance and the history this particular coin carries. Grading? fooey on that entire concept....authactivity is what I am about in order to accurately reflect POP reports etc. factually. Face it me a 65 years old this coin will be in many different hands than mine after my passing before it is unsuitable for sale. So should collectors of the new gen know there is 1 more than the professional companies claim and seek it out if wanting an example before they are all but disappear? I would like to think so...Or should they have to settle for very poor eye appeal like the Ebay example noted. Detail and eye appeal is superior to most examples if displayed with the obverse out front like many collections are. Unless your are the Bass Bros. or the Late Buddy Ebsen,you may NEVER have an opportunity to obtain the second best in the set if you are out to complete that set. CORRECTIONCGS statement also included that they would not encapsulate it in their slab.....much less grade or authenticate it back in the early 90's... game of monopoly anyone? I would like to be the top hat.....

 

If a Grading service overrules grade-ability in support of scarcity, that opens the door to a lot of bias
Whether it is a 1945-D cent or an 1849 Double Eagle, they should all be held to the same standards. They would be doing a disservice to the community if it were biased in support of an 1849.

 

There's several problems that I see with this
(1) the injection of an Emotional "heirloom" aspect to grading and valuation to support a high valuation/grading.

I run across a lot of people who bring, say a clarinet to me and talk up and down about how it was their grandma's who was whatever position in whatever symphony orchestra. So because of that they think it's worth a ton of money.

Compared to the stark reality that a different owner will put very little if any valuation into that instrument due to it's history. There are a few exceptions, though everything has to be totally documented.

(2) not knowing how to grade and how grading follows sets of rules. If something does *not* have those criteria then it cannot be straight graded. And I'm one of the last people you want to grade a coin because I rarely buy graded coins except in certain scenarios. But you have to deal with reality and be totally unbiased.

I'm not a grader and know about wazoo about it other than trying to be critical and unbiased when reviewing a coin versus the PCGS PhotoGrade program.

Of course the rarity has a lot to do with it too.

(3) Authentication versus getting it Graded.
I've bought some pre1800 coins that were holed or damaged that could *NOT* be straight graded due to it. This lowered my purchase cost but knowing that it could Never be straight graded. Of course it limits my selling price too.

Maybe talk to @Insider about this and the best option for you ?

(4) the solder
well fooey. What 'cha gonna do. If you were buying a pristine looking vintage car and then found out there was bondo in one section that would lower your valuation of it, right? Then it would open you up to scrutinizing it in fine detail.

In this case just looking at the coin 90% gold and 10% copper.
don't quote me on this. but pure gold has a melting temperature of over 1900 Fahrenheit, Copper also over 1900.
Tin-lead alloy solders are under 400
Silver is under 700 ?, and silver alloy typically solders under 500 ?
Although I know nothing about "vintage" solders, the compound etc but I would think it's well below that of Gold/Copper.

You see where I'm leading too ..... technically, in the hands of a very, very skilled jeweler, they should be able to melt most if not all the solder off (maybe those grading companies Preservationist people would know more @Insider again).

I would think that First bringing a fine tip, temperature controlled soldering gun up to a verified temp, then touching a solder high point to see the reaction - using a solder vacuum to suck it up. Probably with the coin upside down to prevent it from flattening on the surface. Then moving on appropriately.

Although, keep in mind the surface is already marred, or maybe even protected from this solder so there will still be a discoloration present.

But above the first "8" of the date, is there a hole or indentation there? The picture isn't clear enough to see much. I would think maybe someone made this into a button or a (hat /jacket) pin. But, who knows right ?

 

You could send it in to NCS for solder removal. It might then be slabbed as VF Details Cleaned/Solder or something similar.

Value? Speculative because anyone who can afford a $3 can afford to buy a nicer piece. They do regularly appear at MAJOR auctions. Five pieces in the $1500 to 2500 price range appeared last year at the two major houses, with about a dozen appearing in all grades over the last two. That's a consistent auction appearance rate over decades, so anyone who really wants one can pretty much have their pick.

eBay IS NOT a major auction venue, it's where low-ball, over-graded junk goes to be pawned off on the under-educated.

As to your piece, my guess is you might get someone to splash 400 - 600 on it. Quickest way to find out is to consign it to auction. It will sell, it's just a question of how much.

 

Looks like the details are XF. If this were a problem-free coin, it would go for between $2000 and $3000. As is, I agree with the $400-600 assessment above, as solder is right up there with a hole when it comes to how bad a problem hurts a coin's value. Solder can be repaired to a certain degree, but not so that it's undetectable to a grading service, as far as I know. NCS does not do solder removal or other mechanical repairs (plugging holes, fixing rims). There are other people that specialize in repairing coins, but you need to go through a guy who knows a guy to get to them, and they don't work for free. Even if they could remove the solder without a trace, the coin still looks cleaned, so now you're talking about a $1000-1200 coin. A skilled jeweler, as mentioned above, or someone skilled in soldering on circuit boards, might be able to remove most of it. While it'll be detectable, it might not be quite the eyesore it is here. Not a DIY job, though.

 

I have to agree with PCGS in this case. The coin is obviously damaged. Solder is soft and has a low melting point so at least a good portion of the solder could be removed by a skilled professional of metal working, such as a jeweler. Then, it may grade damaged/details.

It's a shame this happened to this coin but if it wasn't for the low mintage, survival rate and overall scarcity of this date and mintmark I wonder if we would be having this discussion.

Due to the family history and past knowledge of this coin you have become emotionally attached to it.

I would put in writing everything you know about this coin and how it came into the family, including your hands. You make it sound like it will be in the hands of other collectors after your passing when it should remain in the hands of your family.

By your description of this coin it sounds priceless but then you provide a link to the same coin that's graded and selling for under $1800. There is little value in this due to its condition but as a family heirloom its priceless to you, which it should be. Put it in an airtight and keep with the documentation I mentioned for safe keeping. Pass it on to another family member.

To answer your question, the scarcity of any coin should never overrule gradability. Never! The coin is what it is!

 

I thought they were gonna do it, or was that just a rumor?

 

Solder removal is explicitly mentioned on the NCS web page under things they cannot do.

 

For me, scarcity has always been more important than gradability. I have always believed that the main reason we even have graded coins was to create the perception of scarcity where it doesn't exist (i.e. one of only a few graded in this condition by PCGS).

 

Here is a coin I would never have sent to PCGS. I would first read what the requirements are for the grading services. They have specifics on their websites which coins they will grade and encapsulate, which coins will get a details grade and which coins will get a body bag. Lead solder combines or amalgamates with the copper in the gold coin so it is difficult to remove it without damaging the coin. Heat Removing as much of the solder as possible takes some expertise. One of the respondents to this thread had some good instructions. You can also seek out an expert engraver who will re-engrave the coin and remove most of the lead solder. But keep in mind the process is expensive and time consuming. If your thought is just to protect the coin, I would send it to SEGS to be authenticated and details graded and encapsulated in their holder. In my opinion, SEGS has the strongest holder in the grading industry. If your thought is to sell the coin, one of the respondents to this thread has given an accurate estimate range based on the condition issue, possibly 400 to 600.

 

Would anyone here guarantee the authenticity and purity of this coin based upon what you see on the reverse? I wouldn't.

 

Small copper cents have never been graded the same as large gold nor should they as they are not the same.

 

No, they shouldn't be, but a 1909-S VDB should be graded by the same standards as a 1958 cent--which (I think) is what he was trying to say.

The problem is that they aren't.

 

Maybe a simplification and a dumb comment but I thought some TPG would slab a coin and just put “authentic” on the tab, but no numeric grade.

 

In my quote from David Akers-"...A quick look at auction records from 1950 to 1976 shows that no 1855-S was catalogued as better than EF since 1950." indicates that any one that bought a coin from this series and date may not have bought a highly graded one in the $2-3000 range. AUCTION RECORD: $64,625 • MS63 • 08-02-2017 • Heritage Auctions....but to my issue at hand. I (IMHO) think P___'s standard's ARE biased as to if there's solder it could have moved metal. I see where that is consistent with a drilled hole but solder with a melting point 1000degrees less than that of gold or the alloy should be in question. This decision was made in the mid 80's just after the Rich 18 started that TPG service and I have my doubts that those variables in their standards have been updated lately if ever. I'm als in agreement with the values stated from 500-3000 as a possibility. I am the last descendant of this family and have no body to will it to so I am going to sell it and buy myself a "graded " coffin!LOL Please understand that I am NOT a flip-it collector but facts are facts and this is one that should sell just to live on (again IMHO)




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