Smoothed coins

differential, posted: "Sorry, I didn't mean to stir things up. Just seems to me that the word "smooth" could have an informal meeting other than the definition of TPGs. As you have more experience and knowledge, I will defer to your judgment."

You sir, are a gentleman. I am a curmudgeon. This is something we ALL need to keep in mind so we stay on the same "page:"

Words have meanings. The word "smooth" is defined for anyone with a dictionary. Often the usage/meaning changes depending on its application. Now, if I alter the surface of a coin by burnishing it (smoothing it out) to hide defects for whatever the reason or intent, it is an altered surface. The coin is damaged. Anyone who disputes that fact is either stupid or a crook!

The word coin authenticators' used in the past for this type of alteration was "tooled." Now, new generations of folks working in auction houses and TPGS's who are concerned with "political correctness" and are too pansy-butt to possibly offend or affect the value for any uninformed collector with a damaged, tooled, and repaired coin have adopted one of the CORRECT definitions of "smooth" to candy-coat their opinion.

PS I learned a very long time ago that "experience" (the number of years in) is very often no indication of knowledge.

 

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You are correct in your opinions. The description has been used since the 1800s, and is documented, and is still used in ancients collecting, and is an acceptable enhancement for some pieces, and in many cases is considered an improvement and necessary, in that venue. It also encompasses moving metal (contrary to some opinions), removing corrosion, evening out the surface, etc. It can go a bit to far for Ancients collectors, and when it does is called out "with great vigor ( I stole that phrase from a prominent coin doctor of old that practiced out of his shop in East Orange, NJ. He was also an astute and knowledgeable collector/dealer with spectacular original non-doctored stock).

The last thing you have to do is apologize for an opinion or post, around here.

This practice has been around long, long before the advent of any TPG.

 

charley, added: "..."The description [?what description, smoothed?] has been used since the 1800s, and is documented [1800's ? I'd like to see a copy of that antique printed price sheet/reference.], and is still used in ancients collecting, and is an acceptable enhancement [by those selling them to most of us who cannot afford undamaged pieces that may have been ruined last night OR at a time LONG PAST when all sorts of things (burning witches, torturing non-believers) were acceptable] for some pieces, and in many cases is considered an improvement and necessary [to turn a "pig" into a prince], in that venue. It also encompasses moving metal (contrary to some [ignorant] opinions), removing corrosion, evening out the surface, etc. It can go a bit to[o] far for Ancients collectors, and when it does is called out "with great vigor ( I stole that phrase from a prominent coin doctor of old that practiced out of his shop in East Orange, NJ. He was also an astute and knowledgeable collector/dealer with spectacular original non-doctored stock).

The last thing you have to do [Amen to that] is apologize for an opinion or post, around here."

 

That's a beautiful coin

 

Thank you, wanted a high quality IHC and this one was $17 if memory serves.

 

I made it all up. Sorry.

 

I agree, and you are to be commended for personally proving this on many occasions.

 

Insider said: ↑
The last thing you have to do [Amen to that] is apologize for an opinion or post, around here."

What's the first thing you know?

 

Actually I've been playing around with ancients for a couple of years and at least reading the postings in the Ancients Forum. The feeling I get is that smoothing is not a desirable practice, and if a collector buys a coin that turns out to be smoothed without that being revealed, it is cause for a return. Worse than smoothing (and easier to detect) is tooling. Tooling is recutting features of the coin, including facial features and hair. Cleaning is mostly expected on most ancients, but tooling and smoothing are no-no's as far as I know.
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/tooled-hairstyle.294673/

 

@charley. While learning I need to get the kinda correct answers.

 

So do i

 

Come on!!! You like my baked toners...

 

Kentucky, asked: What's the first thing you know?

Easy, that I really don't know much at all!

Regarding experience, charley, posted: "I agree, and you are to be commended for personally proving this on many occasions."

Thank you for pointing that out. As you must know, a major difference between me and many others here is that I'm the first to admit and apologize for posting either false or misleading info. However, I take no responsibility for those with extremely poor reading comprehension who misunderstand what I write. Was this post clear enough.

 

Oh helllll yes. I got 12 of them

 

@Insider casual or accidental handling of a coin is not "thumbing", but it can and does frequently leave hairline scratches (and other residue) on the surface--especially in the fields--as exemplified by many proof coins that have no wear but do have hairlines and have been downgraded accordingly.

My description of 'thumbing" does indicate that to achieve the alteration one does have to intentionally work the coin with pressure over some period of time, and yes, this action can and does move some metal, which may require the use of magnification to see if only minimal effort had been applied, but is readily apparent to the unaided eye if it has been done repeatedly. Examples of this are coins that have been carried as a "lucky piece" in one's pocket and thumbed on occasion to pass the time or as a nervous habit instead of say smoking; also, frequently older coins or flat, coin-like jewelry suspended in a pendant or watch fob have been "thumbed" in the same manner.

If you still think that "thumbing" can't really move metal try this test: (1) take a pre-1982 low-value Uncirculated Lincoln Cent that is Red and take a photo of both sides. (2) using fresh cotton gloves rub the coin (i.e. "thumbing") applying significant pressure for about 20-30 seconds on each side. (3) put the coin down and observe that the gloves will have oxidized bronze (or brass, depending upon the year of issue) residue on primarily the Thumb, and also the Forefinger. (4) observe the coin first with your unaided eyes, then compare it to the before photos, and also observe with a 5-8x loupe or other device--you will see a pattern of area where the pressure was applied that will be observably different from the before photos, such as more hot-pinkish and reflective.

The topic of "thumbing" or "thumbed" has been discussed in this and other coin forums, as-well-as in several coin publications/books.

 

What a way to start the morning. VERY SAD. Now I know exactly why some numismatists I have tried to get to join chat forums don't bother. Unfortunately, it appears that the public education system in this country is completely broken and has been completely broken for several decades.

READ MY Frigin posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tamaracian, posted: "...Casual or accidental handling of a coin is not "thumbing",[Dah, NO FOOLING. I though thumbing was explained very well above by you; however, just reading it again. it could have been better. I should have replied then.] but it can and does frequently leave hairline scratches [only if done by a "rookie" who shouldn't be touching a coin] (and other residue [exactly why coins are thumbed]) on the surface--especially in the fields--as exemplified by many proof coins that have no wear but do have hairlines and have been downgraded accordingly. [Virtually ALL thumbing is done to MS coins. Any fool who thumbs a Proof coin any place besides its relief is IGNORANT!]

My description of 'thumbing" does indicate that to achieve the alteration one does have to intentionally work the coin with pressure over some period of time, and yes, this action can and does move some metal, which may require the use of magnification to see if only minimal effort had been applied, but is readily apparent to the unaided eye if it has been done repeatedly. [WARNING: The technique expressed here - makes me cringe - and is NOT TO BE FOLLOWED. I also mentioned that someone would be moving metal atoms around and claim it would be visible. Heck, with the method described above ...] Examples of this are coins that have been carried as a "lucky piece" in one's pocket and thumbed
[ Actually, a much better description is RUBBED. It is not "thumbing" which is a method of surface alteration.] it is called on occasion to pass the time or as a nervous habit instead of say smoking; also, frequently older coins or flat, coin-like jewelry suspended in a pendant or watch fob have been "thumbed" in the same manner.

If you still think that "thumbing" can't really move metal try this test: (1) take a pre-1982 low-value Uncirculated Lincoln Cent that is Red and take a photo of both sides. (2) using fresh cotton gloves rub the coin (i.e. "thumbing") applying significant pressure for about 20-30 seconds on each side. (3) put the coin down and observe that the gloves will have oxidized bronze (or brass, depending upon the year of issue) residue on primarily the Thumb, and also the Forefinger. (4) observe the coin first with your unaided eyes, then compare it to the before photos, and also observe with a 5-8x loupe or other device--you will see a pattern of area where the pressure was applied that will be observably different from the before photos, such as more hot-pinkish and reflective.

I thought this thread was about "thumbing." I suggest the experiment you are doing to buff up the surface of a copper coin to CYA would be much better if you used BRASSO on your cotton glove!

The topic of "thumbing" or "thumbed" has been discussed in this and other coin forums, as-well-as in several coin publications/books. [I agree SO I highly suggest you delete your post so I can also delete my reply. IMO, neither is very helpful.]

 

Oh, my.....
Bless your heart.

 

Good morning! Your very thoughtful post has cheered me up. THANKS! It made me remember that one lucky day down the road I'll be alone and retired with nothing important to do in life. I cannot wait!

 

Not to put too fine a point of emphasis on:

But, (there is always a "but"), the post by me that you are referring to, can be interpreted in another manner.

Give it a bit of old man thought...

Where is my Win With Ike cane?

 

Still nothing to do? I think I'll post a picture of my trash can.