Siculo-Punic Horse Galloping Type Writeup -> little bit of my resent research

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Windchild, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. Windchild

    Windchild Punic YN, Shahanshah

    First, the two coins I will be describing.

    First, My Favorite Coin...

    A Beautiful Carthage AE17!

    [​IMG]

    [TABLE="class: cms_table_tableb, width: 100%"]

    Carthage
    Siculo-Punic Mint
    370-325BC
    Wreathed head of Tanit left
    Horse galloping right
    17mm, 5.5 grams
    gVF
    Sassari 56-136, Holleman Munten List 106
    Beautiful Green Patina

    [/TABLE]

    One of the best of this type... period!


    Second, a coin from Gitbud Naumann.
    - No Permission... Yet ;)
    - I am going to email them to see if I can use them for research

    Carthage AE11

    [​IMG]

    [TABLE="class: cms_table_tableb, width: 100%"]

    Carthage
    Siculo-Punic Mint
    370-325BC
    Head of Tanit left
    Horse galloping right
    11mm, 2.6 grams
    VF - Minor Damage
    Sassari 56-136, Holleman Munten List 106

    [/TABLE]

    From: http://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/git...of_tanitpersephone__horse/141135/Default.aspx.


    Now, my writeup.
    Both coins share the shame time period, mint place, definition, and catalog number, as shown by the table.

    [TABLE="class: cms_table_tableb, width: 100%"]

    Carthage
    Siculo-Punic Mint
    370-325BC
    Head of Tanit left
    Horse galloping right
    Sassari 56-136, Holleman Munten List 106

    [/TABLE]

    However, I believe that both of these references are taking two or three types and making it to one type.

    The first coin is what I would define as the first type:

    Corn Wreathed Head of Tanit-Persephone

    The second coin is what I would define as the second type:

    Head of Trittolemo

    The third type is those whose style, corrosion or wear means you can't tell which it is.

    Most of these coins are of the last type, as this series is normally G to F... even aVF isn't common.


    Just a little of what I have researched so far...

    The next one may be about the mints of the Carthaginians... depends what I research in the time between.
     
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  3. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian Supporter

    What makes you say that the second bust is of Triptolemus?
     
  4. Windchild

    Windchild Punic YN, Shahanshah

    It says Tanit- Trittolemo on Magna Graecia, which has the catalog numbers (best online source for Carthaginian coins)

    Also, Trittolemo works for the History, as Persephone-Tanit was the 'milk-sister' of Trittolemo ;)
     
  5. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Just a footnote. I don't know anything about these coins, but I do know horses don't "gallop" like that. The thing is, nobody really knew that until the advent of photography and motion pictures. That's why you see this gait repeated, century-after-century, in paintings and on coins. Sorry if I'm intruding.

    PS: You had "horse" in the title, what did I know?
     
  6. Windchild

    Windchild Punic YN, Shahanshah

    :thumb:

    Interesting...

    I didn't know that :D

    Apparently, there is another type of leg that is lumped into this type...

    However, I have yet to find an example of this, so I can't post this yet.


    :eek:ff-topic:

    But just this part!

    This is just the type of post I want...

    More information on the coin... this one specifically about the Art!
     
  7. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian Supporter

    I have a coin of similar typology and roughly of the same era from Macedon. I'm assuming the Carthaginians modeled some of their coins after the Greeks in this respect. The horse even has the same artificial gate, but I do have to wonder if that's more an issue of stylization than ignorance of equine motion. The horse looks more like he's rearing than running.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    I would never call the pose shown 'galloping'. The horse appears to be rearing up with both rear feet on the ground and both fronts off. The photography reference was a bet in the 1870's settled by photographer Eadweard Muybridge as to whether a running horse ever had all four feet off of the ground. He set up a series of cameras tripped by threads that shot the horse as it passed and established that the old rocking horse view of horses used before that time was never a pose achieved by real horses. Muybridge later shot all sorts of animals in this same way producing a book Animal Locomotion and a book of people doing various things called Human Figure in Motion. The amazing thing about these books is just how many things he thought to include (I believe there was a man carrying bricks up a ladder). The books became great sourcebooks for artists wishing to have natural poses of moving, living things. One form or another of his images have remained in print for all these years but the original volumes with tipped in photos are very collectable and expensive now.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=muy...ICIizyAHG4oGgDQ&ved=0CDwQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=583

    Muybridge was a very interesting man with great landscape photos from his early days and his motion studies placing him firmly as a father of the motion picture. In his spare time, he was acquitted of the shooting at point blank range a man he believed fathered his wife's child (justifiable homicide after the insanity defense failed).

    To the best of my knowledge, he never shot a coin photograph making this post wholly inappropriate. My apologies.
     
  9. brg5658

    brg5658 Supporter! Supporter

    Here is one of Muybridge's series of pictures animated:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Windchild

    Windchild Punic YN, Shahanshah

    Totally appropriate post Doug....

    I was a little busy (I finished this near midnight and I'm at school now) to write my opinions on the horse.

    My opinion on this is that the horse is either Prancing, Jumping or Rearing....

    I'll fill this out later (after school)

    I believe that the Macedonian coins were not related to the Carthaginians issues...

    In my opinion, the first die cutters of this issue were Greek, as the style can be very nice, but is normally not very good.

    In my eye, this means that they started with very good die cutters, and as they had just taken a few Sicilian Greek cities at the start of this time period (the Sicilian Wars period)


    Covered Above.
     
  11. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Thank you.

    Really, ancients are a fascinating part of the hobby. They're fascinating coins, with real history behind them. I'm not a collector of these, per se, but I know how to appreciate a good coin when I see it, and its description.

    Let me just leave you with the old, very nice! :)
     
  12. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

    IMG_0534.jpg
    IMG_0535.jpg

    More of the same. :)
     
  13. Windchild

    Windchild Punic YN, Shahanshah

    What is the one on the bottom left?

    And Thanks to Ripley, I'll be able to explain the horses later... :thumb:

    :angelic2:
     
  14. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

    That one is from Thracian, Maroneia circa 400-350 BC. BMC 67:D
     
  15. Windchild

    Windchild Punic YN, Shahanshah

    Ripley, can you post a bigger picture of the top coin?

    Once that is done, I will post my writeup on the reverses... Then I will put them together to make an article from this thread and post it ;)
     
  16. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Here is a horse, trottin' (slackin' off) ...

    greena a.jpg greenb a.jpg



    => and here is a horse that means business!! (yaw mule, yaw!!)

    c piso lf frugi a.jpg c piso lf frugi b.jpg
     
  17. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    MAA lists this coin as struck at Carthage, circa 400-350. He notes units, halves, and quarters struck in with globular or bevelled flans.

    What in the iconography of the second "type" suggests to you an attribution of the figure as Triptolemos?
     
  18. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Where did you say you grew up (or didn't)?
     
  19. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    *that's Manitoba foreplay*
     
  20. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

    IMG_4002.jpg
    IMG_4003.jpg
    As requested. :smile
     
  21. Windchild

    Windchild Punic YN, Shahanshah

    This type is normally assigned as Siculo-Punic...

    It does have units, halves and quarters, but that is to be another post.

    Magna Graecia puts the second "type" as Tripolemos (with a question mark... so I used their attribution as I haven't got a reference book yet [from what I've seen, the most common attribution is that of Magna Graecia])...

    My thoughts on their reasoning as the female figure is thought to be Tanit, 'milk-sister' of Tripolemos, it would make sense for the male to be him.
     
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