Should you Trust NumisTrust? NTC Coin Grading

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by josh's coins, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    I'm writing this article today in order to clear some things up about the NTC grading company and to evaluate whether or not it is a good idea to sign an exclusive contract with the company.

    The common viewpoint by most when hearing about NTC is that they do over grade coins and that on occasion they will come back the same grade after they have been submitted to NGC. This viewpoint is nothing but the truth when it comes to the Old NTC.

    The new NTC was created in may of 2013 when the company and all of its supplies were bought out by an NTC employee. The new NTC has been around for a little over a year now and on their website they have claimed to make great strides in providing consistent accurate grading. Well today we are going to see just how accurate the company is.

    At my request an NTC employee known as Liz provided me with 2 pictures of NTC Morgan Dollars. What do you think the grade is on each coin?. I will post the results later in this thread along with examples of Morgans from PCGS.
    NTC Morgan 1 complete ms65.jpg
    NTC morgan 2 ms63 complete.jpg
    Here are some states that the owner Joe LaBarbera had provided me with.
    • The new NTC has been certifying 4-500 coins per week
    • just under 200 repeat customers
    • 20-30 customers submit bulk orders on a regular basis
    • When crossing-over NTC coins to the new NTC it has been found that Lincoln cents generally graded 2 grades lower
    The way that the new NTC handles the old NTC slabs is quite poor in my opinion. First off there is no way to check for certification on the old slabs. NTC expects you to resubmit them. If the coin downgrades you get credit towards your next submission and sometimes you will get a free submission. The certification search for new NTC slabs works basically just as PCGS or NGC the only difference is that NTC does not provide any pictures of the coins. But I have been informed that they are looking to change that in the near future.

    Now let's talk about the package. NTC will send you a sample package at your request. They will send you 2 coins. 1 will be graded in an NTC slab. The other is put into a generic slab. The Generic slab is for people who want their own labels. You make your labels and send them to NTC and they grade them. However they don't certify the coin nor do they put the their name on the slab. Anyways, here is some photos of the package that I received.
    WP_20140718_003.jpg
    WP_20140718_004.jpg
    WP_20140718_007.jpg
    WP_20140718_009.jpg
    WP_20140718_010.jpg
    As you can see on the reverse of the NTC slab there is a hair inside of it right next to their sticker. I sent pictures to the owner of NTC and he told me that this does not hold up to NTC's high standards and that he was going to chew some people out. When Liz sent me pictures she had told me that the slab I received was from a lot of test slabs that were used to test the equipment. She also informed me that these slabs are being thrown out as we speak. They apologized and sent me another package which I have not yet received. But I suspect it will be here on Monday.
    Move on to those inserts. The owner of NTC would not tell me who manufactures them as he claims it would violate confidentiality which I can agree to. He did however claim that these inserts where high quality just like the inserts NGC uses. I was not very impressed with the inserts at first because they do look like they were cheap and flimsy. So I put them to the test. The blue quarter slab you see in the pictures was bent in half about an hour before the photo was taken. In did not take me much effort to bend the insert in half. But it did take less effort to straighten the insert out again. if you had this insert in hand you would not be able to tell that I bent it in half. So I can agree that NTC has some high quality inserts.

    Now I will briefly go over the financial situation of NTC. The owner of NTC had told me that he can't afford to hire anymore staff to the company.When I asked him if the company was profitable on a quarterly basis he told me that he can't discuss that but he did say "let me assure you we will be around for a long time". I'm sure that NTC will be around for the years to come so long as they finish the projects they are currently working on. I've been informed on NTC's next move but I do not think they want me sharing that with the public. I will just say that NTC has potential for expanding their market share and they are going to take full advantage of the opportunity.

    Lastly I asked him about the graders of the company and he told me that the names of his graders are confidential. But he did claim that each grader has at least 30 years experience.
    NTC has offered me the following deal: I can submit 10 coins for Free but I have to pay return postage that starts at $20. They will put my coins in black inserts if I pay for them (the cost is $540 for 1500 inserts) and I can put my company name/logo on their slab.
    What do you think of all of this? not just NTC but about the coins, the reputation, everything.
     
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  3. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    Any opinions on the grade of these Morgan Dollars?
     
  4. UpGrayedd

    UpGrayedd Member

    With all due respect is this a serious question? I am new here (mostly a lurker trying to learn), but I couldn't resist posting because of the shear irony. A few days ago you called ANACS garbage and now you are asking about the quality of NTC. There is an old joke about NTC, it goes something like this: There may be an MS65 somewhere, but Not This Coin. :facepalm:
     
  5. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    Yes, you are correct. I did call ANACS garbage as their grade is worthless. Many people share the same opinion. With NTC I think they do have a chance at becoming a reputable coin grading company. They offered me a deal that I'm thinking about. So I decided to make this thread to get some opinions so that I may make an informed decision as to whether I should embrace or avoid NTC.
     
  6. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Why should I use a tpg that has no resale value and a lousy rep , I'll stick to the top 2 . That doesn't mean I won't look at coins in any slab , as it's still wise to buy the coin not the slab . Even though the pics aren't the best , I'll give the top Morgan a 64 .
     
  7. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    Exactly what I thought. Congrats, excellent first post...
     
    Amanda Varner likes this.
  8. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    Can we focus on NTC and not what I said about ANACS last night please.
     
  9. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    While I agree the top Morgan Dollar is a MS64 sadly that is not what the NTC slab says. What do you think the grade is on the second morgan?
     
  10. bkozak33

    bkozak33 Collector

    When dealing with these 3rd tier grading companies, I would also worry about them under grading coins.
     
  11. UpGrayedd

    UpGrayedd Member

    Thanks micbraun, but all kidding aside I agree with rzage why would you even consider a TPG that has the reputation of a basement slabber?
     
    Amanda Varner likes this.
  12. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    Here are the results and a comparison to PCGS
    NTC coin 2 revealed.jpg
    1887 Morgan pcgs ms65 complete.jpg
    NTc coin 1 revealed.jpg
    1900 pcgs morgan complete ms63.jpg
    1900 PCGS is ms63 NOT ms65
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  13. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    If NTC becomes 1 of the leading companies such as pcgs ngc icg or anacs then this will benefit me from a marketing standpoint. a lot of people will want my slabs. Have you seen how popular the NGC black slabs are?
     
  14. BHPM Trader

    BHPM Trader Active Member

    The pcgs coins in the examples are by far superior examples. You're reaching way too hard here. If you didnt have a financial angle here, it would be easier for you to see. There are far more overgraded coins in NTC slabs, regardless of when they were stabbed.

    In business, it's smart to think "outside of the box", just not in this example.
     
    Amanda Varner likes this.
  15. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    From the first pictures provided, I would have guessed the 1887 as an MS63. The contact marks on the cheeks were terribly distracting. The PCGS picture makes the cheek look cleaner. I'm still a little concerned about the jaw and what appears to be a lot of marks. I'd go MS4 on that one.

    I would have graded the 1900 as an MS62. The PCGS coin is overgraded, IMO. It just goes to show you that PCGS is not infallible as many collectors believe.

    My opinion on you venture:
    1) Good luck. Nothing ventured, nothing gained
    2) What kind of marketing experience do you have? If you look at the coin grading market, it's dominated by PCGS and NGC. There aren't high barriers to enter the market, but, and this is a big but, people are investing some serious money in coins. By investing, I don't necessarily mean they're hoping to get a return, I mean they are taking disposable income and spending a lot of it on highly valuable and expensive coins. People will not be easily persuaded to invest big dollars in a coin graded by NTC or an entrepreneur like you.
    3) Does that mean, it can't be done? No, but they and you will have to EARN a reputation and that will only come with time. IMO, you'll be well served to earn that reputation on modern and lower value coins. I for one would not spend anywhere close to fair market value for an 1885 CC Morgan MS65 graded by any company other than PCGS or NGC. As you venture into these key dates and higher grades, you'll be working of razor thin margins at best.
    4) There are already 3 grading companies in the second tier market: ANACS, ICG and SEGS. There are others as well. This market is crowded.
    5) If you're prepared to spend 10 years building a reputation grading coins, you'll have a chance to make a profitable business out of it, but during those initial years, you will likely be bleeding cash.
    6) Go in with eyes wide open!
     
    geekpryde likes this.
  16. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    I made a mistake in the pictures. The second pcgs coin is ms63
     
  17. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    NTC is a joke... Nothing more. There is NO coming back from years of shoddy grading. If Dominion Grading Service didn't make it... NTC doesn't have a chance.
     
  18. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    And in my opinion both of the Morgans shown could very easily be sliders... But the pictures leave something to be desired as far as accurately grading go.
     
  19. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    So you believe they are overgraded
    Let's get a bit more of a consensus @Morgandude11 what do you think?
     
  20. Vegas Vic

    Vegas Vic Undermedicated psychiatric patient

    Let me summarize so I can make sure I read this correctly. It's not ok for Amanda to post a link to her coin blog, a blog that focuses on her and coins not sales, but you can pump a nothing third rate failed company which will "benefit me from a marketing standpoint." I read your post and the only conclusion I drew is you own NTC's stock.

    Let me help you out on this. Straight from the customer's mouth. I frequently buy expensive coins that I have posted with photos with the coin literally in my hand. I would NEVER buy a coin that is not in a pcgs or ngc holder. NEVER.

    Just FYI I did go on to Amanda's blog, and then linked to the coin store. I purchased a 1937 pcgs pf67 5c and a nicely toned 1898 1c pcgs 65rb. I also looked at your website. I passed on yours.

    Aside-- Amanda claim credit for my purchase and get the commission. I would not have bothered to look at your site had there not been a huge angry thread. Ill post the coins when I have them in hand.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  21. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    And this comment along with many others I have made the decision to go back to my original plan which is to strive to become a PCGS Authorized Dealer and gain membership in the PNG.
     
    geekpryde likes this.
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