Should I Dip It......

This time (IMO) you are singing in perfect pitch to the congregation!

One little "note" shift at the finale...It appears that the surface has been "damaged" on part of the rim and this coin is NO EASY JOB!

 

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This is an interesting topic. I have been posting this week about this on Collectors Universe ("Black Rims on Morgans"). Unfortunately, I have been locked out of any more comments on that thread to refute the posters who insist that corrosion is the same as toning - I claim that a PCGS graded dollar has a jet black corroded edge that is terminally damaged under the color!

We often have a problem with the words we use to describe the things we see on coins. For example: "Toning."

As I understand it, toning describes the film of colors that occur on a coin due to NATURAL chemical changes to its surface. These changes can be attractive or not. When they are not, we sometime hear the word "tarnish" used.

Toning occurs in degrees. When it reaches the terminal stage, the surface becomes etched (damaged/ruined) under the relatively thick (no longer a "film") black surface. This state is called corrosion or "Environmental Damage" to soften the bad news.

There are some "purists" who claim that any toning on a coin damages its original surface. While this may be chemically and technically correct, most do not agree with this as can be seen in the coin market.

Light toning can be removed w/o a trace. Many later stages can be "fixed" or at the least improved but we probably do not want to know how this is done.

 

I'm pretty sure this isn't true.

If those sulfur atoms only grabbed onto silver atoms that are on the surface, and didn't dislodge those silver atoms from their position in the metal matrix, maybe you could do a fully reversible reaction. But a layer of silver sulfide thick enough to cause interference effects has already dug ten or more atoms deep into the coin's surface. That's not very deep at all, but when you remove that layer, those silver atoms don't return to their original position -- they fall off, although maybe a few randomly reattach to the surface. Repeat that process, and eventually you'll have a dead-looking coin, no matter how light the toning or careful the "conservation" at each step.

 

That is the key here. Many members are very informed and expert on some things and ignorant on others. One measure of a man is to know what he knows and know what he does not. Then be willing to learn/change his opinion if it can be demonstrated there is a need for it.
Therefore, IMO anyone who ignores members who MAY know more about a subject only RETARDS mental growth.

@-jeffB is correct (Post#45). IMO @SuperDave is misinformed or at the least has not posted what he actually knows.

Some surface changes due to "toning" CANNOT BE REVERSED w/o leaving evidence of whatever treatment was tried.

 

It's conceivable; I've never tried to bring back a fully black coin (the most important step in conservation is deciding what to conserve) and don't have the ability to weigh coins with atomic resolution. With that said, like pretty much all conservation operations, the degree of success is likely enhanced by the speed with which the process is accomplished. Many conservations are ruined because the operator wants results right now, and overcooks something.

Electrolysis works with cold water, too. Just more slowly, and perhaps that more gradual transition causes less original silver loss.

Doug, I really don't want to make this into an argument but in the context of discussing a moderately-edge-toned coin you specifically said it would be damaged via inaction.

How exactly do I interpret that, then?

 

The following is just my opinion. SuperDave said: "It's conceivable; I've never tried to bring back a fully black coin***..." That may be a good reason not to comment but just to read the posts and learn as we all need do at times. "(the most important step in conservation is deciding what to conserve)" true and very important "and don't have the ability to weigh coins with atomic resolution." IMHO, This is the typical, nonsensical, unnecessary, pseudo-intelligent ,adds nothing of value, BS that may impress some uninformed high-school-age collector. "With that said, like pretty much all conservation operations, the degree of success is likely enhanced by the speed with which the process is acomplished." If you are talking about the "speed" of the actual conservation, you are mistaken. If you are writing about the "speed" (elapsed time) between noticing the problem and taking steps to correct it by conservation, YOU ARE CORRECT. "Many conservations are ruined because the operator wants results right now, and overcooks something." True, it happens when we are rushed, impatient, or think just a little more...BAM!

"Doug, I really don't want to make this into an argument but in the context of discussing a moderately-edge-toned coin you specifically said it would be damaged via inaction."

I'll let the old guy with the long name answer this; BUT again you are mistaken. The edge of the quarter is already corroded. it would be damaged FURTHER via inaction." The fact that it is going back where it developed the "beautiful black crust" will probably cause the reaction to continue destroying the underlying surface more. See, this is not "rocket science" and no atomic scales, particle accelerators, are needed. It is common sense based on experience ***as I have worked on jet, black, corroded coins on many, many occasions.

"How exactly do I interpret that, then?" You could start by not ignoring me, reading this post, and replying. There is possibly a middle ground of agreement out there to be found.

Goodnight my friend.

 

So the terminal stage of toning, ie black color, is for all types of coins right? Not just silver I'm assuming. Does that color spectrum I saw in here or somewhere else presented by a member apply to all metals? I've never seen rainbow colors on a cent, or nickel, at least not as commonly as silver. When we think longterm, like centuries or even a millennium, will all coins of every metal type turn black without dipping? I would think it depends on environment, holder type, etc. The best bet I'm sure would be gold. Sorry for all the questions, I just was thinking of all these things at the moment

 

@SuperDave

 

I cannot recall seeing BLACK corrosion on gold or platinum. I believe I have seen NATURAL rainbow colors on all metals except platinum, tin, copper nickel, and lead coins.

 

Gold and platinum can sit in the elements for thousands of years without corroding. Sea water, acid and air would eventually attack them, but exposure to air, dampness (from non-salt water) and even sulfur won't do much if anything.

I guess a wood fire could damage platinum, as hot alkali (like that found in wood ash) can eventually attack the metal, but that's a bit of a stretch.

I think the only way you'll get "toning" on gold or platinum is if they're alloyed with something more reactive, or if there's some foreign deposit on the surface. @jwitten has shown quite a few toned gold coins here, but I think they're all "coin gold", that is, alloyed with copper and perhaps other things.

 

Check out Greek and Roman coins.

 

Thanks. Good point about gold being alloyed usually and that can lead to some problems in the long run.

 

Did they lock the thread or did it go poof?

 

I do not get it - the coin is beautiful and it should not be dipped.

 

Without temptation, what's the point of virtue? Perhaps that's why I was sent here.

 

You will find clear answers and explanations to all these issues in The Art And Science Of Coin Grading by Jason Poe. It behooves any collector to learn what Poe has to say here. Natural toning is a plus. Do not dip that quarter. It's surface is nice even with toning. It has excellent cartwheel luster. Dipping it, even a little bit will negatively affect that luster which is this coins best asset.