Should be where's it at! 1972 penny doubled die confirmation.

Tidying up with a bit too much haste had me hiding this penny from myself after finding it CRH'ing. I had snapped just a few pix of it and surely put it somewhere brilliant and logical. That brilliance and logic in recalling where I put these has thus far evaded me.

I could use some forensic confirmation that the first two shots are likely of the same coin. To know for sure that it is 1972 will assist in my narrowing down places I would have been likely to have put it.

Confirmation the three after it is a copper coin, I'm pretty sure I was doing no zinkers during this session, will also help in my locating it. Any educated guesses to its actual year would also be helpful.

And yes, I tried google asking it where I put these two coins, used this forum's search engine and got notta. I know this is a crazy post, but, there are mountains of what I thought were carefully placed and indexed pennies about and I've wasted hours trying to locate these two which I know have not left the building. I found some of the white metal variety and error coins found during the same session but, I did not put these in the same place.

I promise I am not trying to wind any of you up with this.

The first two pix are of what I recall being a 1972 doubled die obverse.
Does that appear plausible that the first two pictures are of the same coin?





The next three I found during the same session that had to be abruptly terminated which resulted in my hiding it from myself before stuffing them both in flips. I did not snap a picture of the overall obverse or reverse of either coin and failed to get a picture of the date of this one. Feel free to opine this one is not worth seeking if that is your candid opinion.








Photographs: Samsung Galaxy S5 14MP camera thru the eyepiece of a Leica SZ4. Daylight and Tungsten lighting. FWIW.

 

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Huh?

Chris

 

Of course! That's PMD and mechanical doubling shown in the first picture on the "U". Come to think of it now that you snapped me back into reality, there is no "U".

 

Your first photos suggest this only an example of the very common master doubling.

 

Thank you, I never implied it was either rare or of peculiar value. It is worth more than its melt value though.

 

When a master die is doubled that means that every working die produced from the master will have the same effect.

On the plus side, any time I come across a master doubled die, despite being somewhat disappointing, I take it as confirmation that I am looking for the right type of doubling.

 

From whence the famous 1955 and 1969 DD's originated?

Do you see anything on the second coin?

 

I suggest reading this page:
http://www.doubleddie.com/203801.html

 

Thank you. I've read the entire site. Not only have I worked in a tool and die/metal stamping shop, I own a machine/fab shop. So, I do comprehend the subject matter likely a bit more than the average bear.

Could I bother you for a direct answer to both of my foregoing questions?

 

If the master die is doubled, every die will have the same doubling for that year. 1972 is fairly unique that there were 2 master dies after one was taken out of service. The page I linked specifically talks about the example you posted. I suggest you reread it because it will answer your questions. I can't think of any example off hand where a doubled master die will bring a premium since generally every coin from that year will have the same effect (pending extraordinary circumstances where a second master die was produced).

 

It has been estimated that upwards of half the entire mintage exhibits said master doubling, so attaching any sort of premium, even "melt" (which is actually less than face) according to copper content, is a bit of a stretch, unfortunately.

 

$0.0180904 melt ?
http://www.coinflation.com/coins/1909-1982-Lincoln-Cent-Penny-Value.html

 

Two questions, post number 8.

Now I am wondering if somebody in this thread is either being patronizing or trying to inslut my limited intelligence:

1) I have thousands of 1972 pennies and I don't see this exhibited on anything like 1% of them, much less 50%. Not that it matters, my accumulation may have largely come from the other 50% or your estimates may be spurious.

2) http://www.coinflation.com/coins/1909-1982-Lincoln-Cent-Penny-Value.html

 

-http://www.doubleddie.com/203801.html

 

Far less than that because the cent is an alloy, and as such, will only be worth 25% of the value for Grade A copper. I don't care what Coinflation says. They're cloned idiots!

Chris

 

Links like this are both misleading and responsible for a lot of people wasting a lot of time. Unlike, say, silver where a small amount of copper doesn't make a great deal of difference, when it comes to cents the alloy form does make a big difference. "Copper prices" quoted are for grade A and cents are not grade A. Even if legal, no refiner would pay anywhere near grade A prices for an alloy. While cents may technically contain metals worth the quoted amount, they're simply not worth it in the present form.

 

Here's some info on the MDO .

1972 1¢ WMDO-001 Doubled Master Die

Description: An extremely close Class I CW spread shows on the letters of LIBERTY, IGWT, and the horizontal bar of the 2 in the date. On early die state specimens the E of WE appears to show tripling suggesting a CCW spread in addition to the CW spread.

Die Markers: Obverse: The affected master die shows a short die gouge extending eastward inside the upper S of TRUST. Other obverse die markers will vary with the different working dies that were affected. Reverse: Die markers will vary with the different working dies that were affected.

Submitted By: John A. Wexler

Cross References: CONECA: MD-1-O-I-CW+II-C (formerly listed as MD-5-O-I-CW+II-C), Crawford: CDDO-005 (MD)

Values: No extra value!!!

Comments: Shortly after the various obverse doubled die cent varieties were produced that year, the Lincoln cent master die for 1972 failed and a new one had to be produced. Clearly the Mint was having problems that year with the hubbing process as was evidenced by the many doubled die varieties produced. Those problems carried over to the second master die that was produced for the Lincoln cents that year. That second master die was produced with minor doubling. It is estimated that the doubled master die was created somewhere around April or May of 1972. All of the Lincoln cents struck by working dies that descended from the doubled master die show this minor doubling. The doubling can be seen on the letters of IGWT, the letters of LIBERTY, and very slightly on the date. Since 60% to 70% of all Lincoln cents for 1972 show this doubling, it is far too common to have any value. This includes 1972 D-Mint, S-Mint, and proof coins produced that year. Newer doubled die collectors should be very careful if responding to ads for 1972 doubled die Lincoln cents. There are individuals out there trying to sell specimens of this doubled master die for premiums far in excess of what they should be. You should not be paying more than the normal numismatic value of a 1972 cent for 1972 cents with this master die doubling. Those trying to sell them to unsuspecting buyers advertise them as “genuine doubled dies” which they are. The ads are truthful in that respect, but they fail to tell you that it is a specimen of the doubled master die that can easily be found without paying a premium for it. Back when they were first listed they were assigned a listing number of 1972 1¢ MD-5-O-I+II. Those trying to sell them at a premium identify them as “5-O-I+II” but they leave off the master die indicator “MD.” If you are fairly new to doubled die collecting, don’t let yourself fall victim to these scams. If you would like to add a specimen of the doubled master die to your collection for educational purposes, go out and look for them yourself. Since the majority of 1972 cents show this doubling, you should easily find one for the cost of a “regular” 1972 Lincoln cent.

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That is completely beside the point. What you stated is false. I honestly thought you had just mixed up your wording... The melt value of a copper penny is almost double the face value. Besides the logistic issues, the problem is that it is currently against the law to melt cents for metal value.

I would like to draw your attention to N.F. String and Sons ebay portal where they currently have copper pennies being offered by the truck-load for people who are willing to hedge their bets that the melt ban will be lifted:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Truckload-o...376954?hash=item542a9fed7a:g:eLAAAOSw~otWdBBe

Personally, I'm not going to spend money on copper pennies because I believe the actual amount paid out if the melt ban is lifted will be much closer to face because of the problems with sorting and refining. I do pull them out of my change and toss them in a jar. It also makes it easier to pick out any that haven't seen much circulation.

 

Plenty of scrap yards knowingly paid going rate for melted penny ingots when copper hit 4 bucks a pound. A few people got legally jammed up over it.

FWIW, shown are two different coins and the brown one I would swear isn't a 1972, but, I could be wrong. If it is, I should find both of them in the same place.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of their current values, I put such coins in a flip when I don't get interrupted and derailed. Even spectacular machine doubled and DDD's.