I have often been a strong believer that marks in that marks in the prime focal area of a coin are essentially grade limiting marks. After all, how many times have we seen a gem coin with one distraction that prevents the coin from achieving gem status. Here is a good example of what I am talking about. This 1880-S Morgan Dollar was graded MS64* by NGC because of the significant mark found on lady Liberty's cheek. If we remove this mark from the coin, the effect is pronounced and there is very little doubt that the coin is an MS65. Even PCGS supports this grading practice as evidenced by this quote from THE PCGS OFFICIAL GUIDE TO GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION (pg 5). This leads me to my question. Should a single significant mark in a prime focal area prevent a gem grade from a TPG? Even if the other elements of the grade from a holistic approach would normally merit a gem or even premium gem grade, should the grade be limited by the mark? For the purposes of this discussion, a significant mark is one that can't go unnoticed even upon casual inspection of the coin. Here is an example of the kind of coin I am talking about (photos courtesy of Heritage Auctions). This is a 1964 Jefferson Nickel with a major mark right on Jefferson's jaw line. The 1964 was an issue that was produced over 1 billion nickels. Quantity not quality was the goal of the mint that year and the majority of the coins bear marks and poor overall strikes. This example has an unusually strong strike and in fact bears full steps. The surfaces are those of a gem state coin with the exception of the mark on the face. Without the mark, this coin would have a shot at MS66 even though the two significant marks in the reverse fields could hold the coin at MS65. The overall appearance of the coin is impressive for a 1964 Jefferson Nickel. Without the mark, the coin has the appearance of a premium gem as seen from the healed photo below. Now we know that the TPG's employ a system of market grading coins. We have all seen how rainbow toning in combination with luster can create eye appeal that will cause a coin to receive a grade bump due to the resultant eye appeal. It appears obvious that PCGS has also market graded this Jefferson due to the otherwise excellent surfaces and the superior strike for the date/mm. What I want to know is should they have? Does market grading coins like this one hurt the integrity of the gem grade? Please vote in the attached poll and share your comments regarding this topic!
I think the single mark in the prime focal area, such as the example of the Morgan given here, should affect the grade and keep it from the 65. Just as football is a game of inches, I believe coin grading is a game of minute details and eye appeal. If those were two separate Morgans side by side, both given a 65 grade, the one without the mark on the cheek would be more desirable, fully earning the 65. It's a fair argument though.
In this case the answer is yes, but this cannot be a blanket statement about all Morgans. The coin in question is an 80-S (albeit a VERY attractive one- love the toning). It's a common date that comes nice...thus a mark such as the one seen here would carry more weight than it would on, say, a Carson City issue of the same year, which is notorious for being heavily bagmarked... so all other things being equal, if this were the CC version it would be an easy 5 and shot 6. Similar situation with the 1964 nickel. It's a widget date, and though you make the argument that they are normally weak, the strike isn't the issue here. Frankly you're looking at a smaller piece composed of a comparatively tough metal...thus it's harder to impart a significant mark like that. I think the 65FS label is accurate there, if not a tad generous IMO.
The date shouldnt matter. A grade should be universal. If a date/mm doesnt come in 65 then so be it. Otherwise why stop there? Why not take the best example of every date and call that an ms70?
First you say a grade should be universal, then you acknowledge that certain dates don't come nice. Different issues from different mints or even the same mint were simply not consistently struck every year. 1880-S Morgans are some of the nicest pieces in the series; they have a high percentage of 65 and up grades with lots of PL and DMPL pieces. Show me an 1880- CC or 80-O that looks just like OP's coin as far as absence of marks, strike, etc. and I'll guarantee you it will get graded higher because it would be a rare exception rather than one of many.
Yes, a coin should NOT get a gem grade if there is a prominent distracting mark in a focal area. However, the market price of the coin may deserve a much higher price than another coin of the same grade. Thus, the coin could still sell at the 65 price even though the grade is 64.
Yes, it happens all the time. A prominent ding or scratch can drop a grade significantly, even if the coin has great eye appeal.
While I'm not a dealer and I probably make many mistakes with grading, I'd avoid coins such as your 80-S Morgan dollar, because of the cheek mark. When I collected US, I loved seated dollars and a mark on the arm getting a net grade of 64 wouldn't be a killer for me. Likewise I'd prefer a few scuffs in the field rather than a mark on the cheek.
Rules are rules. MINT STATE/PROOF-65 Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike
I know it's pointless to rail against reality, and the only thing that's permanent is change. Nonetheless, as a collector who started with a Whitman Lincoln cent folder I got as a Christmas present when I was five, I say this: Hair-splitting grading of the sort being discussed here ultimately benefits the people who split hairs for a living, and even they don't do it consistently. I've been forced by fakers and frausters to collect "certified" coins, because their ability to cheat exceeds my ability to detect it, but I focus on coins graded at or around AU 58. Many of them are more appealing visually than MS 60whatever coins that sell for many times as much, and I don't have to engage in debates like this one.
Well of course because the grade depends on how much wear and damage it has on the coin. if a coin has a big dent or scratch it's still part of the coin.
