Sheldon, Newcomb and Overton... oh my!!

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by BostonCoins, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. BostonCoins

    BostonCoins Well-Known Member

    Where my passion is early large copper, I often find myself dealing with Sheldon and Newcomb die varieties.

    While reading threads on Coin Talk, and similar websites, I'm often exposed to the Morgan VAMs, Overton Busts and other such die marriages.

    I'm curious to hear WHY you think these die varieties/marriages are so collected.

    I will have a hard enough time getting singular examples of the early coppers ranging from 1793 - 1857. If I start to concentrate on the die varieties, this jumps the number of coins I'd need from 60 up to 500+!!!

    So why do the die collectors do it? I realize that these dies come with different rarities and such, but does that REALLY matter? If I had a 1798 Large Cent in MS condition, does it really matter which Sheldon varietiey it is?

    Perhaps it's a way to expand your collection horizon. With a 60 year production run, there are only so many coins to collect. However, if you add dies, that expands what you can collect by the hundreds. Is it as simple as that? Or is there something more... something I'm missing??
     
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  3. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Your question has many answers, but one of them is certainly the thrill of the hunt and being able to find a scarce die varieties for a certain date.

    I cannot speak for Newcomb varieties, but for large cents dated 1793-1814 where the Sheldon numbers apply, there are in total something like 280 varieties (give or take).
    Sheldon ranks the relatively scarcity of each variety from R-1 (over 2000 specimens known), all the way to R-8 (1-3 known).

    As of R-6 (13 to 30 known) or more properly R-7 (4-12 known), these are also called NC-varieties (for non-collectible). These are so scarce that only few collectors will ever find them. I do not have any in my collection, but do have a few R-5s or better.

    For die-hard early large cent collectors it is a thrill to find anything R4+ or higher, and many would prefer an R-5 or above, even in low grade, to an R-1 in true EF condition. I know I would.

    To make matters even more interesting, some people even collect die-wear states within a single variety.

    So it all depends what you are after: If you are a type collector, then normally one would be happy with a well preserved specimen, regardless of the variety and scarcity. If you are a large cent devotee, however, then varieties normally do matter.

    And yes, a 1798 cent in MS condition is a very desirable coin, even if
    'only' rated R-1 !!
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  4. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    Speaking of Overton varieties, I love the challenge of the hunt
     
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I was never really a set collector myself let alone a variety guy. For me, I had to like a coin to want to add it to my collection. There had to be something special about it, something different, that appealed to me. And I don't mean special or different as in a different variety kind of way, but rather in a visual way. Something that you saw immediately and jumped up and slapped ya in the face kind of way. And with varieties, well in many if not most cases you can't even see it without benefit of a loupe. So for me, that just leaves 'em out.

    All the same I understand the concept and why it appeals to some people, it's a chocolate and vanilla thing. And I think mostly they are those who are driven by the idea of collecting sets. It's the idea of having complete sets that appeals to them, as opposed to having individual coins. And that's where the varieties come in, for to have a complete set, well you gotta have the varieties or the set isn't complete.

    I guess you could say it's a goal, something to work towards, and in the end to have something that few if any ever have. And that adds a sense of accomplishment to the equation, and that adds what can only be called bragging rights. To do something, to accomplish something, that very few, if any, have ever done. And by doing that, that makes them, the collector themselves, special.

    So in the end I guess that's it, the desire to be special, to be set apart from everybody else, or at least almost everybody else. And I get that part, I really do, I think everybody gets it really for just about everybody wants to be special in some kind of way. I myself once set out to be the first and only person to ever collect a complete date set of Netherlands ducats. A task that I knew from the get-go was an impossible task for they had been continuously minted for over 400 years. And for me that was it, for here was a coin that in and of itself was special in so very many ways, and few even knew that much about them. And on top of that I was trying to do something that no one had ever done, no one had ever even tried to my knowledge.

    In the end I never made it of course, I quit collecting, completely. But I got closer than just about anybody else ever had, excepting maybe a couple of museums, before I quit collecting. And that goal, that desire was replaced by something else because once you have a desire like that, well, it's kinda hard to do without it. And the new goal became writing, or helping to write, to first definitive books on Netherlands ducats.

    Well, that goal is not completed yet either, but it's on it's way. Volume I was published in the fall of 2015, and Volume II is in the works. III, and probably IV, will come after that. Now all I have to do is live long enough to actually see it completed :)
     
  6. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    As you may have seen from my other post I'm working on die varieties of Capped Bust Quarters/Reduced Size (1831-1838).
    In this case I'm dealing with Browning (B-) numbers.
    Unlike many of the other sets the die varieties are limited in number.
    It's nice because there are only 36.

    I'm also working on a Capped Bust Half Dime (1929-1937) die marriage set but it's "back burner" at this time.
    I'm using Logan/McCloskey (LM-) numbers for them.
    It's NOT a smallish set since there's something on the order of 125 die marriages.
    Since I'm retired I have the time to experience the "thrill of the hunt".

    That's the sort of thing that keeps my numismatic "juices" flowing.
     
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  7. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    The answer is quite simple. Because people enjoy it.

    There are as many different types of collections as there are collectors, each with their different tastes, building a collection they find enjoyable. Before Heaton's treatise on branch mint coinage in 1893, mint marks were mostly ignored. In a similar manner, individuals' research into die marriages have grabbed some people's interest such that they find collecting them enjoyable.
     
  8. okbustchaser

    okbustchaser I may be old but I still appreciate a pretty bust Supporter

    Few of the Overton collectors I know (including myself) originally set out to collect by his die marriage numbers. They probably bought a single bust half for a type set, found the series interesting and proceeded to try to put together a year set. By the time they did that, Red Book varieties were "needed". By now, they were totally hooked and the different die marriages were the next step. I suspect that the same is true for collectors of other series as well.

    Bust half fever is real...it is addictive...it is dangerous. Stay away from that first gateway purchase.
     
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  9. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    and leave those "Busties" for us!
     
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  10. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    If it was only about collecting examples of coins, the only limitation would be the amount of money you were willing to throw at it. But to me, and many other collectors, numismatics is as much about scholarship as it is collecting. Understanding the coins in their historic context, knowing the processes the various Mints used to create them, delineating die pairs and varieties.

    It's telling that there are more names in numismatics famous for their coin research than those famous for their collections.
     
  11. McBlzr

    McBlzr Sr Professional Collector

    The first CBH I got was a 1832 for my GG-Grandfather's Birth Year.

    I now own 43 of the 4.8 million mintage of the 1832's :shame:
    16 of them Graded with Overton numbers.
    I bought the Parsley Book. Slowly have tried to establish my die marriages.
    Now, when do I submit to NGC these 25 other 1832's :nailbiting:

    Overton_Book.jpg
     
  12. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Because apparently a slight difference in the coin's embossment (read Date and mintmark) is not different enough. And apparently these varieties are not enough as there are people who collect by die state.

    However, when I am better funded, I would like to pick a variety (likely a silver half as nice copper cents/half cents have gotten too ungodly expensive) and have a set of coins from a new die pair to total failure. As an engineer, the process of die wear and tear is fascinating to me.

    You guys have any suggestions?
     
  13. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Actually they should be cheaper today than they have been in years ! While there may be exceptions for specific coins, taken as a whole coin values today are at the same level they were in 2004. In other words they have dropped that much from the highs last seen in 2008.
     
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  15. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    And I just read that the Early Commemorative market has been depressed for several years.
    Might be time to buy there.
    I've got a number of holes in my set; mostly the pricier items.
    I'll have to take a look but last time I did the prices seemed too high.
    Maybe dealers aren't willing to take a loss from their original cost!?
     
  16. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    For the price of a nice VG 1797 Large Cent (which has some of the neatest die state studies out there), I can get an AU Capped Bust half of almost any date. Plus it is bigger and silver. Which is the better deal?
     
  17. NSP

    NSP Well-Known Member

    Why buy one coin of a certain date when you can buy a whole bunch of them using die marriages as justification? I say that only somewhat jokingly because I could honestly see myself using this excuse.
     
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  18. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    You can get carried away though. "I've got this date, and this variety, and this die stage, and in this grade,......BUT I DON"T HAVE A GREEN ONE!" John Wright on how a copper addict will use any justification to add another piece to his collection.
     
  19. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Wow...just one question, when you sold, did you lose your ...nether regions, lose some, break even or make a bundle?
     
  20. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I sold two entire collections in my life, lost a good bit on both of them.

    'Course now if the timing of my sales had been different, I woulda made a bloody fortune both times ;)
     
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  21. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    "Timing is everything"
     
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