Serious Question (about grading)

Well, if you look at it that way, then they're not getting very many right now, or they weren't then, and the only ones they're getting right now are the ones we complain were undergraded.

 

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You need to learn your history better GDJMSP, they weren't ordered to do anything.

The Ministry of Truth has simply published the corrections of the erroneously written materials such as grading standards v2014.020.a.y.17.x with the correctly written version v2014.021.a.y.18.z

 

Many years from now, maybe more graders will be able to talk freely about changes in standards over the years. I'm sure the TPGs and the graders have a legal agreement.

I have to think that the graders and the bosses discuss and debate this all the time. I'm sure the boss wins.

 

It's clear that the grading standards have dropped. It would also be difficult to believe that the drop was brought on by graders free will to lower their standards. Any new graders that were brought on as the business grew had to be instructed as to conpany standards. I think it's pretty clear then that the bosses are the ones that made the business decision to lower standards and not the graders, as @GDJMSP stated.

 

GREAT POST!

1. Standards have dropped. Everyone knows that.

2. I know/have known quite a few TPG's and at least five TPGS Finalizers. NO ONE has ever even hinted to me they are told how to grade. To become a grader you either need to be "connected" or you need to be referred and tested to see if you can make the cut. I myself tried to get a position at ANACS in CO long ago.

3. Company "standards" is a moving target...they can change SLIGHTLY with the market. Graders know how to grade, that's why they were hired in the first place. If their opinions differ too much from the finalizers they are either let go or given some instruction. For example: If I were calling all the old AU-58 Saints (from the 1970's - 80's) AU due to my personal standards rather than MS-62; I would be shown the "company line" for acceptable high point rub.

4. The "Boss" finalizer is the one who sets the standards. A "boss" can have a bad day or week as they are human. That's why we can find under-graded, and over-graded coins in slabs.

5. TPGS's are not out to get us. They don't have meetings to adjust grades. While everyone claims/or is certain that major collections, rarities, and major clients get a break on occasion; that would not be the best business practice to pursue on a very large scale. What can happen is a major client can put heat on the company to get better grades. It is like a baseball manager arguing with the umpire. That MAY influence the boss a little but the bottom line is this: The pain in the butt needs the TPGS as much as they need his business.

2

This is pure uninformed nonsense. IMO, "Ordered" is a very bad choice of words. The ENTIRE NUMISMATIC COMUNITY except for old time hold outs such as myself HAS BEEN GRADING AU COINS AS UNC FOR DECADES. Many years before PCGS was a gleam in Hall's eye!

Consider this, all the YN's and present day collectors are being trained in the "Loose" standard for Unc as it exists today. In ten years or so "no trace of wear" will be a footnote in the grading guide because it is not followed as a standard even today!

 

As far as I know there are no gag orders on ex-graders - a least not to hear them talk and tell their stories. Several will be drinking at the Moonlight Lounge in CO and you may get them going after a few beers.

I have heard that discussions between graders can get both heated and sarcastic. In the end everyone remains friends and not much changes. IMO, the major buyers and auction companies do influence the coin market; but so do the TPGS. There is give and take over the years as grading standards change.

Decades ago, investors were told to buy the best (Uncirculated coins not XF's). Everyone wanted Brilliant Uncirculated coins with no trace of wear. There were not enough to go around in most coin series so the "standard" for Unc used by the grading services such as INSAB, and ANACS came under pressure. The first grading service at INS in Washington, DC ) held to the strict standard and went out of business!

 

Fair enough. But MinTruth would remind you that all standards prior to v1999.x were recalled as erroneous too.

 

Confession Time! I had the apparently erroneous idea that I was an informed student of coin grading practices and grading services from the 1960's to the present day.

I have no clue/never heard of/cannot figure out what the heck all the v's + dates.XX refer to or where to look them up. PLEASE HELP!

 

You will need the special guide book to v's numbers to understand it all. I think the 5th Edition is the best but some would rather have the 4th. I would loan you mine but it's too old to be of much value.

 

A liberal enough LOL interpretation might view that as a like. Or at the very least a slippery slope with plus sign in that direction.

 

That's a good one and I fell for it. The out-of-print book in my library only used Z#'s w/o the decimals!

I'll get back at you all with a dose of faces!

 

This is the difference:

1. If it turns out a new hire CANNOT GRADE he is let go. The five or so core graders/finalizers have demonstrated they can grade. They set the standards. These core graders may even switch around the major grading services in their careers. No one needs to be ordered to do anything.

Now, if you or I were hired at a TPGS, we would need to LEARN that our tough "no trace of wear" grading is NOT PRACTICED BY ANY
major TPGS. So, we would either "learn" or be let go in ninety days. NO ONE would ever say "Grade the sliders Unc or anything like it." NO ORDERS!

P.S. On a visit with a TPGS grader he had a picture on his desk of a monkey. With the words:"Monkey See, Monkey Do, Monkey Get Rich."

 

http://www.examcollection.com/225-020.html

 

If "THEY" is the prevailing market grading standard at a particular point in time (standards change due to market conditions) for the entire professional coin industry (dealers, auction companies, TPGS) then YES! I give up on this.

 

WOW!!! That was a lot to absorb. I understand all the arguments for and against. I commend the OP for sharing his knowledge and expertise on the subject; as well as all the others that responded. I personally think we should go to a 1-100 point system; but that is just my own personal thoughts. For may years PCGS was top dog and they had strict grading standards. Over the years they have lost their luster in my opinion. The ego's have exceeded capacity. NGC on the other hand has improved considerably and I consider them the better of the two TPGC's. NGC has better holders and are more prestigious to me. PCGS just forgot what customer service is while NGC goes above and beyond in regards to customer service. Please don't flame me; this is just my personal opinion. Enjoy what remains of your day.