Selling outside the US on ebay??

One time eBay added the GSP to my listings without my realizing it, and someone from Germany won three of my coins, sent me an indignant message because of the high shipping cost and left me negative feedback, all before I even had a chance to send an invoice with the real shipping charges. It got straightened out, but I would never use it intentionally. I sell lower value items, but I just use a regular envelope or a small bubble envelope. The costs are reasonable and I don't have problems.

 

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Not even close to true. You can thank ebay policies for why the vast majority of sellers will not sell internationally. A package could literally be sitting in customs (and sometimes they do sit their for weeks) and the buyer will be refunded and still get the item. Why should someone risk that?

You can't recall a package if a buyer initiates an ebay claim for a delayed shipment when it is sitting in the customs office of another country, but if that happens on a domestic shipment you can have the package recalled. It makes no sense for small or casual sellers to take the added risks involved with international selling. That doesn't even get into the issues with tracking, unreliable postal services, dishonest postal services ect depending on the country.

 

Agreed. I have sold a bunch of individual coins to (mostly) overseas buyers (China, Spain, Korea, etc.) and had no problem. Then again, I never have sold large volumes of coins, so my experience is limited. I believe many a US seller's issue stems from the fact that overseas customers do not appreciate the higher shipping fees involved in buying from the USA. I have had buyers ask why shipping is so much higher from the USA. When I purchase from Korea, shipping is faster, cheaper, and about as reliable as methods used here in the USA.

 

It makes no sense for small or casual sellers to take the added risks involved with international selling. That doesn't even get into the issues with tracking, unreliable postal services, dishonest postal services ect depending on the country.

My point all along is that the 'extra risk' is in fact extremely small.

My loss rate for thousands of items sent internationally(never with any tracking) was about 1 in 500. I would have considered 1 in 100 acceptable.

Tracking is not some magic protection spell, you can do without it. You simply insure your item against loss in transit. The USPS provides delivery confirmation for First Class International mail to a large number of countries, so you could consider limiting your selling to those countries. It is probably wise to avoid selling to those countries the insurers will not cover but that still leaves at least the richer half of the world.

THe worst I cvan say about postal services is that some are slow. This is most notable shipping to the USA, the only country in myexperience where there are long delays in customs.

 

I've sent stuff to Germany. In fact I'm starting to sort through my new stash and there are some nice choice German coins in it that I'll be looking to sell/trade at some point.

I always make it a point to try and help get coins back to their country of origin when I can. I know the love I have for my home country and I can only assume others do as well. I sent a bunch of stuff to Australia last year and the guy took the time to photograph his collection with the missing pieces and send it to me with a big thank you note. Was an awesome collection of Kooks.

For Ebay stuff, I have decided only to use the global shipping program for any auction items. For "BIN" items, I will price them high enough that it keeps away the scammers and allows me to grant a nice deal to a well qualified buyer from overseas. I still use GSP - but I know there's taxes and tariffs and work with the buyer to get fair value for both of us.

 

I know the love I have for my home country and I can only assume others do as well.

Count me out, there are several places I like better than my home country, some without even having been there.

 

It's not as small as you are making it out to be for ebay sales. You're relying on an element of luck not using tracking. For a casual seller I would venture to say that the loss rate of anything above 0 they do not receive an insurance payment for would be unacceptable for any package worth three figures or more. Its one thing to be sending 5-10 dollar coins that way but three figures or more and you're just hoping to get lucky.

You really can't even make blanket statements about the risk. It varies with every individual country. I'm one for one on packages lost without tracking internationally when a buyer had specially requested it and we arranged the sale in a way where I would not be liable if the package is lost because he wanted to save money on shipping. As soon as the domestic USPS tracking ended at customs the package was never seen again.

I had another one shipped to Canada that got lost in Canadian customs for over three weeks. That buyer could have easily filed a claim and been refunded by ebay if they wanted to.

I've sent numerous things to Australia and had no problems for Priority class and above with tracking other than being slow, but I will not do it through ebay due to their policies and how quick they are to refund buyers over things out of your control. Not everyone is honest, a good percent of people aren't. It is simply not worth the the added risks and hassle to do international shipping through ebay for the marginal amount of extra business you would get.

Selling ANYTHING to ANYWHERE on ebay and not using tracking is just asking to get scammed. It doesn't matter if the package gets their or not, all someone has to do is say they never got it. With no proof it did ebay will refund the buyer 100 percent of the time.

You cannot insure USPS packages without some form of tracking. They would just tell you you have to have tracking if you tried. Tracking is the only way to get insurance, without it there is no proof you ever sent anything.

 

You're relying on an element of luck not using tracking

You are reyling on luck with it as well. Another word for luck is 'probablity' and the mathematics of probability are what insurers rely on to set rates. 'Luck' is fuzzy, probability can be calculated quite precisely and you set your business up accordingly. I use what I call self insurance. Based on an estimate loss figure of 1%, it actually provided a steady annual profit.
In no way does that tracking protect a package. In most countries only very valuable items would be sent with some form of special delivery, those bar codes just make your item stand out as worth stealing.

You cannot insure USPS packages without some form of tracking. They would just tell you you have to have tracking if you tried. Tracking is the only way to get insurance, without it there is no proof you ever sent anything.

This is simply not true. The independent insurers do not ask for tracking of packages because they know it is a waste of time. You can insure FCMI (basic airmail) with an independant without tracking outside the US. You can insure with an independent when you print an ebay postage label.

And of course you can self insure.

Selling ANYTHING to ANYWHERE on ebay and not using tracking is just asking to get scammed. It doesn't matter if the package gets there or not, all someone has to do is say they never got it. With no proof it did ebay will refund the buyer 100 percent of the time.

This is really not a problem. I find the usually mature buyers of antiques and collectables including coins and banknotes are at least average honest, and that seems quite honest enough for me. Would you cheat a seller? Why do you assume lots of other people of similar moral standing would? Yes, they could, but generally they don't.
It is of no interest to me if the claim is genuine or not. As long as the overall loss ratio is small enough to not be a problem, I really do not care if a few people have a free item. It's business, it's not personal.

I can see that if your post is typical, and my experience is that it is, ignorance of how things actually work is the biggest deterrent factor to any selller being willing to expand their horizons.

It is fair enough to say that exporting or not exporting is everyone's personal choice. I just suggest that that choice should be made from a position of being fully informed of the possibilities and the ways of minimising risk.

 

Not really. Tracking provides accountability to the postal employees and allows me to make an insurance claim if something happens. It's more relying on competency when a package can be traced back to its last location. Granted in a lot of countries corruption will override tracking accountability but I would never ship there in the first place.

I don't believe for a second any insurance company is going to make a payout on an item that cannot proven it wasn't delivered. Only tracking can prove the item never made it there. Signature confirmation and delivery confirmation are also forms of tracking since they have an acceptance and delivery scan, but no insurance company is going to provide a policy that is based off of your word that it didn't arrive.

A lot of them will even dictate how something must be shipped over certain value amounts. They're in the business to make money, not to pay out claims.

Would I no, but that doesn't mean anything. I also wouldn't murder or rape someone, it doesn't mean those things don't happen every day. Just because I wouldn't do something means nothing.

I assume it because its true. The world is full of scammers and dishonest people. I've been ripped off before on ebay. Sold a mid three figure coin to a buyer with signature confirmation and insurance on the package. The post office for whatever reason never got the signature on the delivery. The buyer left me positive feedback for the coin and then two weeks later noticed the tracking never said delivered and filed a claim that he never received it. Ebay gave him a full refund. Luckily I was able to get the insurance claim but it is a perfect example of how absurd ebay policies towards sellers have become.

I know other people who have been scammed on ebay as well. All you have to do is look around any coin forum and there are numerous stories of people being scammed by dishonest buyers on there.

There's no ignorance of how things actually work. I am very well aware of how things actually work. It is not worth the hassle or the added risk to maybe get an extra handful of sales a year on ebay. I barely like selling domestically on ebay at this point as well due to their policies now. I will sell internationally in private transactions on a case to case basis, but there is no chance I will do it on ebay which is what the initial question was.

 

How does the insurer know what is written on a customs label ?

 

I sell worldwide with the exception of Italy and a few other places.
I`ve had stuff allegedly stolen in Italy more than once, one in the Middle East.
Most stuff that was not tracked went missing in the USA.
So I could say don`t ship to the USA.

 

I don't believe for a second any insurance company is going to make a payout on an item that cannot proven it wasn't delivered

Believe. You cannot prove a negative anyway. The insurance companies do not investigate run of the mill claims anyway, it is not cost effective.

Quite a few years ago they discovered or decided that making claims simple and quick brought in more money than trying to double check every penny of a claim, because they got far more customers, and the bigger pool of customers you have the more perfectly the actuarial risk can be assessed and priced.

Would I no, but that doesn't mean anything. I also wouldn't murder or rape someone, it doesn't mean those things don't happen every day. Just because I wouldn't do something means nothing.

It does mean something. It means you are typical of the population. Murders and rapes happen, but they are atypical and spreadover the population, quite rare. Petty theft is more common but remains relatively rare among the adult population, most notably that section of it that has disposable income to indullge in hobbies.

 

I don't know of any insurance company that will pay out claims just on someone's word. They wouldn't even have to investigate all they have to say is provide documentation or a tracking number that shows it got lost. Even the USPS makes you send them the tracking and proof of value of the contents for their insurance claims and they have the tracking in their system.

Even if for the sake of argument it worked how you said, you are taking the persons word they never got it. If they did in fact get the package and you filed a claim that was paid you are now apart of insurance fraud.

Over a large enough sample size it can become relevant, but my moral compass has no bearing on anyone else's actions besides my own. The point was just because I wouldn't do something doesn't mean the other person wouldn't.

 

I admit I assumed that if you made a claim the insurer would want to see a copy of all the paperwork and that would include the value declaration.

 

Even if for the sake of argument it worked how you said, you are taking the person's word they never got it. If they did in fact get the package and you filed a claim that was paid you are now a part of insurance fraud.

Not true, no mens rea or evil intent. You have no knowlege or way of acquiring knowledge that a crime has been committed.

They wouldn't even have to investigate all they have to say is provide documentation or a tracking number that shows it got lost.

It is customary to ask for a statement that the item never arrived from the buyer, but if the recipient is non cooperative, evidence of a paypal or other refund is enough.

The insurance companies are not daft and view an uncommon number of claims with suspicion, but this is just a sensible background measure.

Over a large enough sample size it can become relevant, but my moral compass has no bearing on anyone else's actions besides my own

Your behaviour is typical, which is what matters, we are dealing with that large sample.

I admit I assumed that if you made a claim the insurer would want to see a copy of all the paperwork and that would include the value declaration

If you are talking about claims and insurance in an ebay context, the sale price is evidence of value, and that is about all that is needed.

Bear in mind that most claims will be for sums under $100 which in the big scheme of things is trivial. The premium income for this would be in the range of 80c to $1.50.

 

Generally yes, but you have no way of knowing the package was actually lost under the no questions asked conditions of payouts you describe.

Evidence of a refund proves nothing. It could have been returned, the transaction canceled ect.

At this point I would really love to hear what company this take your word insurance is. You've basically said all you have to do is list something on ebay, have it sell, refund the buyer, and you will get paid.

A portion of shipping insurers won't even do coins. ShipandInsure one of the major ones for coins if you're an NACA member specifically states a package must not be released without a signature and you are responsible to make sure no signature release is on file with the carrier.

Not really. We are actually dealing with a very small sample of just 1 person each and every time. Only one person is buying that item from you that is your sample for each instance. Every transaction is independent of the previous one much like a roulette wheel. Just because something happened x number of times before does not have any bearing on the next one.

Again I said it wasn't worth it for smaller or casual sellers, not the behemoths doing 100s of 1000s to millions of sales a year.

 

but you have no way of knowing the package was actually lost

The buyer says they have not received it. It might be possible to prove they had received it,(searching their house, for example) but it is quite impossible to prove they did not. Even being marked as delivered on someone's computer does not prove they have it, it is possible the item was wrongly delivered.

Only one person is buying that item from you that is your sample for each instance. Every transaction is independent of the previous one

This is true, but the overall honesty of the group does not depend in any way on the honesty of a specific person.

Again I said it wasn't worth it for smaller or casual sellers

It is possible to insure items on an ad hoc basis. With sales of about 50 items a week I'd consider myself a fairly small seller.

It was cumulative sales of over 40,000 items, mostly international, that gave me the experience to make the statements about ebay selling and international shipping that I do.

My whole and sole point in answering this thread about ebay and international shipping was to pass on my experience of doing just that. I did make enough money to retire on some years ago. I must have been doing something right.

 

That is true but at least in those instances you will have some sort of recourse. Signature confirmation really shuts down most bogus claims quickly as well as its hard to deny you signed for something when it is an item of value. Obviously a 10 dollar item

That is also true, but for the case of the transaction on the specific person matters.

In the grand scheme of things, but for a venue like ebay with the numerous casual or occasional sellers I would guess those numbers would put you around the top 1/3rd of sellers. Now a days maybe not though as those sellers seem to be finding other venues more.

Some years ago I would have agreed with you. With each passing year they have swung the pendulum further and further towards the buyer to the point that really only massive sellers who get special treatment have any sort of recourse. Occasionally they make a small change to protect sellers a little more but that never seems to last long.