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<p>[QUOTE="Curtis, post: 8290905, member: 26430"]These are really interesting comments. I've thought about this coin a lot (especially for not having the RIC type yet!), but I had also accepted the conventional perspective:</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Most of the time I was researching these, I spent wondering if the Provincial ones could be tied to the Imperial series (I think there's good reason to believe so), and if the Provincials could <i>also</i> be said to portray Nero-as-Apollo.</p><p><br /></p><p>But you're right, we've put a lot of interpretative weight on that single statement from Suetonius. I don't have the page number, but I noted that Mattingly accepted Suetonius' Nero-as-Apollo description in the 1923 BMCRE Vol 1. I would guess it was already an old idea (among modern numismatists) at that time.</p><p><br /></p><p>It may not always be the most reliable, but sometimes, if one can find well-enough preserved specimens, it seems that the facial features on reverse figures might help answer whether the Emperors are those being portrayed (or family members, or for Greeks, the Kings, etc.).</p><p><br /></p><p>These two RIC ones aren't mine. Here's a CNG Web-shop example (<a href="https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=38841" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=38841" rel="nofollow">from ACSearch</a>) that, to me, does look like Nero's facial features on the reverse (I also just noticed the hand on the back of the lyre/cithara strings--<i>beautiful</i>!):</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1465515[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Here's another, from different dies, Fig. 5 on page 9 of Ellithorpe (2017), cited below. From <a href="https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=206543" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=206543" rel="nofollow">CNG EA 276 (21 Mar 2012), Lot 379</a>:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1465537[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Now that you've made me think about it, though, I'm starting to feel the Provincials are the ones that may be more Nero-like! The faces on the RPC 1439's like mine are rather "Muppet"-like, both on obverse and reverse, but those comparisons are even riskier on cruder Provincials (more <a href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/1439" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/1439" rel="nofollow">RPC 1439 Online examples</a>).</p><p><br /></p><p>As I stated above, the radiate crown on the Apollo is usually considered a way to emphasize that it was Nero.</p><p><br /></p><p>He was also portrayed radiate on the <i>obverse</i> of this contemporary issue (this is another one of mine that was also ex-BCD collection, and came from the same sale, CNG EA 325):</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1465506[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>On a funny side-note, the late great Rev. Rogers (1932: 35-6, No. 81, Fig 24) interpreted the <i>Taurokathapsia </i>scene above as a “bovine centaur”!</p><p><br /></p><p>I've found quite a few references addressing the Nero-as-Apollo question for the Provincials (specifically RPC 1439) -- more than for the Imperials. Perhaps that's because no one ever thought to do the leg-work and answer your question, <i>Do we really know if that's Nero on the reverse of the As and Dupondius?</i></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Thanks! "Prolific" is definitely right. I really enjoy the scholarly nature of the collection, and the fact that great attention was given to cataloging each coin (with their handwritten labels and notes), including the most unassuming examples. The Thessaly collection, especially, is vast: CNG not only had many e-auctions (some cataloged well enough to serve as supplementary references in their own right, such as EA-325, "<a href="https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=sale&sid=711&cid=18920" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=sale&sid=711&cid=18920" rel="nofollow">Coinage of the Thessalian League from the BCD Collection</a>"), they also sold huge group lots of BCD Thessaly duplicates beginning with Triton XVI in 2013. Here's <a href="https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=223779" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=223779" rel="nofollow">one lot alone with over 1,000 coins just from Phalanna</a>! There were many, many lots like that, continuing over multiple sales!</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><b>For those interested, a couple more of the Imperial references I've found useful when reviewing this issue</b>:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Bolton</b>, J.D.P. 1948. “<a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/636569" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/636569" rel="nofollow">Was the Neronia a Freak Festival?</a>”<i> The Classical Quarterly</i> 42 (3/4): pp. 82-90. [<a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/636569" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/636569" rel="nofollow">https://www.jstor.org/stable/636569</a>]</p><blockquote><p>Not specifically numismatic, mostly about Nero's "Games" and their timing; but does discuss the dating of the RIC coinage in celebration of the <i>Neronia </i>(i.e., Apollo w/ Cithara) beginning at the bottom of p. 87 through 89.</p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><b>Ellithorpe</b>, Corey. 2017. <i>Circulating Imperial Ideology: Coins as Propaganda in the Roman World. </i>Doctoral Dissertation: UNC-Chapel Hill. [Direct download of .pdf: <a href="https://cdr.lib.unc.edu/downloads/nc580n441?locale=en" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://cdr.lib.unc.edu/downloads/nc580n441?locale=en" rel="nofollow">https://cdr.lib.unc.edu/downloads/nc580n441?locale=en</a> ]</p><blockquote><p>Discussed on pp. 9-10, with references to literature, illustrating an example with what I think is an Apollo with Neronian features.</p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><b>Some Provincial refs:</b></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Burrer</b>, Friedrich. 1993. <i>Münzprägung und geschichte des thessalischen Bundes in der römischen kaiserzeit bis auf Hadrian (31 v. Chr. - 138 n. Chr.)</i>. Saarbrücken Archäologisches Institut der Universität des Saarlandes.</p><p><br /></p><blockquote><p><i>Incidentally, I'm waiting for my Burrer to come in a delayed / slow delivery from Germany! Forget that additional point of relevance in my first reply -- deliveries of numismatic literature are slow too nowadays!</i></p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><b>Huber</b>, Katharina. 2014. “Typologische Untersuchung zu festlandgriechischen und ägyptischen Lokalprägungen zur Zeit der Griechenlandreise des Kaisers Nero,” <i>Mitteilungender Österreichischen Numismatischen Gesellschaf</i>, Vol 54 (2): pp. 75-99. [in German] <a href="https://www.academia.edu/9199791/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.academia.edu/9199791/" rel="nofollow">https://www.academia.edu/9199791/</a></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Levy</b>, Brooks. 1984. “Nero's liberation of Achaea : some numismatic evidence from Patrae.” In Heckel et al. <a href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/WV_EI29TcYMC?hl=en&gbpv=1" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/WV_EI29TcYMC?hl=en&gbpv=1" rel="nofollow"><b><i>Ancient coins of the Graeco-Roman world : the Nickle numismatic papers</i></b> [1984 ed. on Google Books, lim. prev.]</a></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Papaefthymiou</b>, Eleni. 2005. “<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326976783_La_visite_Neron_Grece" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326976783_La_visite_Neron_Grece" rel="nofollow">La visite de Néron en Grèce: le temoignage numismatique</a>.” Pp. 915-925 in <i>Proceedings of the XIII Congresso International de Numismatica, Madrid 2003</i>. [Researchgate.net, 326976783] (in French)[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Curtis, post: 8290905, member: 26430"]These are really interesting comments. I've thought about this coin a lot (especially for not having the RIC type yet!), but I had also accepted the conventional perspective: Most of the time I was researching these, I spent wondering if the Provincial ones could be tied to the Imperial series (I think there's good reason to believe so), and if the Provincials could [I]also[/I] be said to portray Nero-as-Apollo. But you're right, we've put a lot of interpretative weight on that single statement from Suetonius. I don't have the page number, but I noted that Mattingly accepted Suetonius' Nero-as-Apollo description in the 1923 BMCRE Vol 1. I would guess it was already an old idea (among modern numismatists) at that time. It may not always be the most reliable, but sometimes, if one can find well-enough preserved specimens, it seems that the facial features on reverse figures might help answer whether the Emperors are those being portrayed (or family members, or for Greeks, the Kings, etc.). These two RIC ones aren't mine. Here's a CNG Web-shop example ([URL='https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=38841']from ACSearch[/URL]) that, to me, does look like Nero's facial features on the reverse (I also just noticed the hand on the back of the lyre/cithara strings--[I]beautiful[/I]!): [ATTACH=full]1465515[/ATTACH] Here's another, from different dies, Fig. 5 on page 9 of Ellithorpe (2017), cited below. From [URL='https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=206543']CNG EA 276 (21 Mar 2012), Lot 379[/URL]: [ATTACH=full]1465537[/ATTACH] Now that you've made me think about it, though, I'm starting to feel the Provincials are the ones that may be more Nero-like! The faces on the RPC 1439's like mine are rather "Muppet"-like, both on obverse and reverse, but those comparisons are even riskier on cruder Provincials (more [URL='https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/1439']RPC 1439 Online examples[/URL]). As I stated above, the radiate crown on the Apollo is usually considered a way to emphasize that it was Nero. He was also portrayed radiate on the [I]obverse[/I] of this contemporary issue (this is another one of mine that was also ex-BCD collection, and came from the same sale, CNG EA 325): [ATTACH=full]1465506[/ATTACH] On a funny side-note, the late great Rev. Rogers (1932: 35-6, No. 81, Fig 24) interpreted the [I]Taurokathapsia [/I]scene above as a “bovine centaur”! I've found quite a few references addressing the Nero-as-Apollo question for the Provincials (specifically RPC 1439) -- more than for the Imperials. Perhaps that's because no one ever thought to do the leg-work and answer your question, [I]Do we really know if that's Nero on the reverse of the As and Dupondius?[/I] Thanks! "Prolific" is definitely right. I really enjoy the scholarly nature of the collection, and the fact that great attention was given to cataloging each coin (with their handwritten labels and notes), including the most unassuming examples. The Thessaly collection, especially, is vast: CNG not only had many e-auctions (some cataloged well enough to serve as supplementary references in their own right, such as EA-325, "[URL='https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=sale&sid=711&cid=18920']Coinage of the Thessalian League from the BCD Collection[/URL]"), they also sold huge group lots of BCD Thessaly duplicates beginning with Triton XVI in 2013. Here's [URL='https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=223779']one lot alone with over 1,000 coins just from Phalanna[/URL]! There were many, many lots like that, continuing over multiple sales! [B]For those interested, a couple more of the Imperial references I've found useful when reviewing this issue[/B]: [B]Bolton[/B], J.D.P. 1948. “[URL='https://www.jstor.org/stable/636569']Was the Neronia a Freak Festival?[/URL]”[I] The Classical Quarterly[/I] 42 (3/4): pp. 82-90. [[URL]https://www.jstor.org/stable/636569[/URL]] [INDENT]Not specifically numismatic, mostly about Nero's "Games" and their timing; but does discuss the dating of the RIC coinage in celebration of the [I]Neronia [/I](i.e., Apollo w/ Cithara) beginning at the bottom of p. 87 through 89.[/INDENT] [B]Ellithorpe[/B], Corey. 2017. [I]Circulating Imperial Ideology: Coins as Propaganda in the Roman World. [/I]Doctoral Dissertation: UNC-Chapel Hill. [Direct download of .pdf: [URL]https://cdr.lib.unc.edu/downloads/nc580n441?locale=en[/URL] ] [INDENT]Discussed on pp. 9-10, with references to literature, illustrating an example with what I think is an Apollo with Neronian features.[/INDENT] [B]Some Provincial refs:[/B] [B]Burrer[/B], Friedrich. 1993. [I]Münzprägung und geschichte des thessalischen Bundes in der römischen kaiserzeit bis auf Hadrian (31 v. Chr. - 138 n. Chr.)[/I]. Saarbrücken Archäologisches Institut der Universität des Saarlandes. [INDENT][I]Incidentally, I'm waiting for my Burrer to come in a delayed / slow delivery from Germany! Forget that additional point of relevance in my first reply -- deliveries of numismatic literature are slow too nowadays![/I][/INDENT] [B]Huber[/B], Katharina. 2014. “Typologische Untersuchung zu festlandgriechischen und ägyptischen Lokalprägungen zur Zeit der Griechenlandreise des Kaisers Nero,” [I]Mitteilungender Österreichischen Numismatischen Gesellschaf[/I], Vol 54 (2): pp. 75-99. [in German] [URL]https://www.academia.edu/9199791/[/URL] [B]Levy[/B], Brooks. 1984. “Nero's liberation of Achaea : some numismatic evidence from Patrae.” In Heckel et al. [URL='https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/WV_EI29TcYMC?hl=en&gbpv=1'][B][I]Ancient coins of the Graeco-Roman world : the Nickle numismatic papers[/I][/B] [1984 ed. on Google Books, lim. prev.][/URL] [B]Papaefthymiou[/B], Eleni. 2005. “[URL='https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326976783_La_visite_Neron_Grece']La visite de Néron en Grèce: le temoignage numismatique[/URL].” Pp. 915-925 in [I]Proceedings of the XIII Congresso International de Numismatica, Madrid 2003[/I]. [Researchgate.net, 326976783] (in French)[/QUOTE]
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