SEGS NOT HONORING GUARANTEE

All I know is the op bought a 66 , but a SEGS 66 . She should get the difference of what a SEGS 66 is worth and a SEGS 64 is worth , , no way should she expect $14,000 or what a top tier tpg is worth because she didn't buy a top tier tpg slab she bought a lesser slab that we all would never pay full price for .

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

"How can you tell if it was a lawyer or a skunk that the car hit"

"For a skunk there might be skid marks where the driver tried to stop"

 

Edited

 

I believe Larry founded SEGS grading service when a deal to either buy PCI or become a partner fell through in the mid 1990's. SEGS is located in Chattanooga where PCI once was and a former PCI manager, Adrian was/still is a manager(?) at SEGS.

@Ollyoccia My advice is not to send the coin to another TPGS as it may drop to an MS-63. If you chance it and it does cross to an MS-64 at PCGS you will be ahead of the game but then you'll have no "hard" evidence in your case.

Chances are your coin is not 100% original, that's why the big drop in grade. I suspect some sort of surface alteration that was missed the first time around. That's the only way a coin can drop as yours has done as it is very flashy and probably has virtually no marks. In my experience, most dealers and collectors cannot detect this type of alteration. If your coin has a bluish haze that is a 100% clue to one form of chemical alteration done to gold.

 

IMO if the coins is cracked out or crossed the right to payment is forfeited. At that point it would no longer be a SEGS anyway and would say to wait for the process to conclude unless the OP is just giving up on the claim.

 

Way late in the thread (which sits a 5 pages) but I think I would want SEGS to provide proof of some sort on when the coin was graded?

I'd then consult with an attorney on what my specific options might be.

 

Apples to oranges IMO since a bad grade on a coin is not an immediate threat to personal safety such as a starter which suddenly catches fire.

 

Thank You for bringing out the obvious.

Namely, the $19K Price tag is based upon the PCGS Price Guide which can be overinflated and not a reflection of actual market value.

Secondly, it's in a SEGS Slab. Not a PCGS Slab. And THAT is probably the reason the OP got it for $5K. Well, that plus a questionable auctioneer that regularly sells coins over their actual market value.

Lastly, why would ANYBODY expect that Larry Briggs would honor "PCGS's Price Guide" value?

Oh! My bad. Someone who believes that their SEGS MS66 is interchangeable with a PCGS MS66.

There's a reason that SEGS does't have the same marketability as PCGS.

Maybe I should have read the entire thread before posting and geting more specific details.

Forget contacting an Attorney. Forget finding out when the coin was actually graded.

You played a big boys game and lost. Don't try to get Larry Briggs to cover your gaming costs.

A piece of free advice:

DO NOT use the PCGS Price Guide as a decision making tool when buy some other Grading Companies slabbed coins.

Another piece of advice:

DO NOT Trust that the listed value in the PCGS Price Guide is what you can expect in resale value. IF the coin had been in a PCGS MS66 Slab and IF you paid $14K for it, you STILL will not walk away with a $2K profit. You MIGHT break even.

 

Although there has been quite a bit of discussion about how much should be paid, the fundamental issue is no payment at all was offered. If payment were offered, then arguments about how much would be more pertinent. SEGS may be on strong legal ground regarding the LLC not having to assume any liabilities, policies, etc. of the corporation. It would take a lawyer or several to sort it out, and the sorting out might require litigation. It could be argued that the LLC accepting a coin graded by the corporation for a regrade is tacit assumption that the LLC is extending the guarantee backward, but it might take a judge and jury to establish it legally.

If SEGS lawyers set it up right, they can show the pertinent documents to Tennessee authorities and little is likely to happen by way of criminal or regulatory action unless some political advantage can be gained. Chances are the authorities will say it's a civil matter. The corporation or LLC may have been established in another state, like Delaware or Nevada, which complicates the legalities even more.

However, SEGS can be faulted on ethical grounds for not stating on-line that coins graded by the corporation are not guaranteed by the LLC. If enough folks in the numismatic community know about it, SEGS' business will suffer accordingly.

Cal

 

Hahaha. I have not heard that one before. Pretty funny.

 

There seems to be a lot of "buy the slab and not the coin" going on here. It's annoying, but I feel like that is the argument here.

By paying $5k for the coin, you set the market value for a SEGS MS-66. Now all you have to do is find an auction result for a SEGS MS-64, and that is the maximum difference in value that Briggs owes you if he does turn out to be legally entitled to pay you.

All you have to do is read the contract from when SEGS turned into an LLC and see what is said about the corporation's debts and guarantees.

 

The problem is in the guarantee. It says ALL SEGS slabs are guaranteed. It does not say all SEGS LLC. slabs, or all SEGS slabs since 2007, it says all SEGS slabs. Then you have the problem that SEGS has not changed their slabs since 2003. It is not possible to look at a SEGS slab and say "This is a SEGS company slab and that is a SEGS LLC slab" unless you have access to their internal records. The slabs from the two entities are identical.

Frankly SEGS is being very foolish if they don't honor this guarantee. They should pay the OP the difference between the FMV of a SEGS MS-66 and a SEGS MS-64. What are those FMV's? Well like with the other services and their guarantees that is up to SEGS to decide. If they don't pay and the story becomes widespread that SEGS doesn't stand behind their guarantee, that could pretty much finish the company.

 

I kinda wondered when someone would actually state the relevant reality. It is unreasonable to expect a SEGS MS66 to carry the same "Market Value" as a PCGS MS66. The PCGS Price Guide only applies to PCGS coins, and doesn't bind anyone else unless they explicitly state so in their guarantee. NGC, for instance, uses the term "Fair Market Value" and reserves the exclusive right to determine what that value is.

In other words, it's as subjective as the grade.

It's also probably more realistic than PCGS; only 7 of the last 21 MS66 1910's sold in a PCGS slab have actually reached their Price Guide price; none of the last 6 offered going back to early 2012 did.

So what's at stake here is not "what's an MS66 1910 $10 worth?" but "What's a SEGS MS66 1910 worth?" Any lawyer worth their salt would play the "TPG quality" card in court.

 

"All SEGS Coins Are Guaranteed"

"I truly relied on SEGS guarantee before purchasing the coin."

You bought a SEGS MS66 and for some reason you sent it back to SEGS for a regrade. Did you purchase it with the idea that it was an MS67, or did you purchase it with the idea that it was an MS64 or 65?

You say you purchased it relying on SEGS guarantee. Which guarantee, a regrade guarantee or the one you have quoted a couple times, "All SEGS Coins Are Guaranteed"?

The later is a guarantee as to authenticity of coin. As to the grade, everyone will tell you that grading is subjective.. which is translated as: "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." At the time of SEGS 1st grading their opinion was MS66, and now their opinion differs. 'subjective'

Coin grading has gone through many metamorphosis in the last 10 years. Almost no one will ever buy a SEGS slab with the hopes of it gaining in grade. Just makes me curious.

When a complaint arises involving SEGS this board is always mixed. Some will always be against Larry Briggs and some will always be fair. These replies, once again, reflect this observation.

 

I have an idea... why not buy up all those NGC MS63 and 64 large cents that are constantly claimed to be only MS 61-62 or even AU58. Then, if they actually grade 61 or 62, NGC will cut a check for the difference in the PCGS price guide.
Then again maybe they don't guarantee their grades. Never mind!

 

Numismatic expertise (which no one can argue Larry has in abundance) is no guarantee of business acumen. It's always been a bit of a conundrum that someone of such qualifications would be involved in such an all-over-the-map grading effort. I'm still sore about their previous practice of calling all 1921-P D1 Reverses by the term "So-called Zerbe Dies." They had to know that twenty million coins (or however many were struck with D1; it was a lot) take more than one die to strike....

 

How do you ever come up with the value on a SEGS MS66? Actual sales?

 

I reacted that way, yes. I made the assumption that the OP was trying to get PCGS MS66 price guide retail for a coin not worth even close to that in a SEGS holder, and I guessed they didn't pay $19K for it. (Turns out later it was revealed she paid $4999). I was a bit harsh in my method.

But there's this: There are a dozen ways to make money with coins. Cherrypicking, flipping, playing the PCGS upgrade game, trolling eBay listings. All those are fine by me, but I guess I took exception to someone trying to effectively, (what seemed to me), twist the value system to make bank. Did SEGS abuse the guarantee? It's totally possible. I don't know enough about the LLC stuff to know, which is why I suppose I should have reserved a rush to judgment.

 

As long as we haven't heard the other party (i.e. SEGS) it doesn't even make sense to think about who's "right" and who's "wrong". I also have a feeling that the OP told us only half of the story... anyway I'd just send it to NGC/PCGS to see what they're going to say.

 

Any other grade opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with the question at hand.