Seeking ID for 1970s, possibly much older ticket

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Andrew McCabe, Apr 22, 2019.

  1. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    Great. Welcome to the Provenance Bug Club. This thread is a wonderful introduction to the joys of provenances.
     
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  3. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    I do the same!
     
  4. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    For what it's worth I've got most of my old provenance tags online here. Not sure if it's useful to anyone or not but there are several examples there of the big RR collectors like RBW, Goodman, etc as well as many smaller dealers and collectors. I still need to sit down and scan many of them in but I made sure to grab them all last time I was at the bank so I expect to add the rest in the next few months.

    I note the seller's handle as well as the name, city and state from the return address on my tickets that will one day accompany my coins. In my digital files I note much more including full address and any info PayPal gives me(i.e. email address).
     
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  5. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

  6. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    I show below my ticket filing system. There's 100 PVC leaves, and I use the first 9 or 10 of 12 slots per leaf so I don't need to rearrange everything if I add a new coin (it's a lot more difficult to move PVC flips in and out of PVC leaves than to move coins between trays). Slot size fits 2x2 flips; if I have smaller tickets as is normal then I put the tickets into a 2x2 into the slot. If I've a full sizes 2x2 paper ticket such as the RBW paper envelopes (you can see RBW tickets in positions 2, 8 and 10 on this page) then I put it direct in without enveloping in another flip. My own tickets that you see here are 1.5 inches or so. The left hand of the visible page is the back of the prior page tickets - often I put my own ticket facing front and any prior collector ticket facing back and auction tickets in between these. I keep export permits and provenance-essential printed invoices in A5 (half size) plastic sleeves opposite the relevant page. I do not retain printed invoices unless essential for provenance because I know they'll never get passed on to future collectors. Just tickets.

    WP_20190424_19_34_58_Pro (002).jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  7. akeady

    akeady Well-Known Member

    I've got a big plastic bag full of old flips, tickets and envelopes - it will need some work to get it into the state Andrew shows above, but that is my intention. I've stored whatever provenance information I have in the Tantalus data, but as seen in this thread, the flips and envelopes can bring further insights.

    Bruce McNall's books is a good read, and very cheap on Kindle:
    https://www.amazon.com/Fun-While-Lasted-Rise-Fortune/dp/0786868643

    ATB,
    Aidan.
     
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  8. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Well, well...another SC in my collection that I didn't even know I had....

    IMG_20190426_211747.jpg

    And here is the coin in question....

    M. Cipius M.F. Denarius.jpg

    Like my other SC coin, it was bought from Civitas Gallery in 2015. This one though doesn't list on the back of the envelope where he got it.
     
  9. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    I bought this guy in 1985-87. I do not know where it came from. If anyone knows I would be grateful. Crawford 357 357-a.JPG
     
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  10. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Well-Known Member

    To be honest I never gave much though to provenance... other than ensuring that I made my purchase from a reputable seller. Someone saying they previously purchased the coin from "xxxx" sounds nice - but how do you prove that really? My coins are not of the quality of most here.
    However in reading this thread - I really enjoyed it and can see how interesting it can be to trace back the ownership history. Very cool.

    I have no old tags (have a many newer ones of course) .. but this modest Nerva dupondius was purchased from a reputable seller and the online listing (no tag) stated:

    Ex Stacks auction ("James Dines collection"), March 7-8, 1969

    I actually found a listing on VCoins awhile back for the auction catalog from the Stacks Auction of this date - but it had sold unfortunately. Would have been quite nice to own (and verify).

    I do not know who James Dines is/was.. but Googling him I think he is/was some sort of investment guru/shyster... he REALLY wanted me to invest in uranium! If in fact this is the correct James Dines.
    https://www.dinesletter.com/bio.html

    Here is an excerpt from Coin Week:
    https://coinweek.com/dealers-compan...ic-family-the-early-days-of-stacks-1968-1969/


    We auctioned the James Dine Collection of United States gold and silver coins in March. For those who do not recognize the name, James Dines in the 1950s and ’60s was a prominent financial advisor who was quoted in newspapers and on the radio. He started collecting after he inherited his father’s coins. The James Dine sale had 1,119 lots, consisting of some 469 lots of foreign and ancient gold and silver, which was the background he used to traced monetary history during its 2,500 years of development.

    He personally liked U.S. coins, which he started assembling as a Type Set so he could be familiar with the various designs and weights that were part of his study of American monetary issues. He also amassed collections of dates and mints of some series (usually in Mint State or Proof), from the half cent to the $20 gold double eagle, which he found to be a challenge. His U.S. coins made 650 lots, and the public had the opportunity to learn from his hobby.

    ---
    Anyway - if we are talking the same sale this must have been one of the bargain items (but I love it!):

    NervaMERGE-removebg.png
     
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  11. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    Your coin appears to be listed here but unfortunately was not included in the plates. I don't think the ancients in this sale were from the James Dine collection from my reading of the catalog.
     
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  12. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Well-Known Member

    Excellent link and info - Thank you!!
    Same sale - but not from his collection.. makes some sense as this coin did not seem to fit the profile of being owned by some financial guru :).... I guess it shows how things can be misinterpreted over time...and older provenances are (in many cases) open to varying interpretation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
  13. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    Here's a coin I recently found some information on and thought worth sharing here. When I purchased this coin it was ex RBW Collection and ex Goodman collection(CNG Sale 45 lot 1286). I've always wondered what the monogram on the Goodman tag that seemingly read something along the lines of "Santamaria" referred to and while I knew the collector I kept forgetting to actually ask until recently. I received a response today that it refers to Ernesto Santamaria of P&P Santamaria fame however this coin was purchased retail from Ernesto's shop long after P&P Santamaria's glory days. It was also pointed out that this coin was sold as anonymous and if Mr. Santamaria had recognized that it wasn't he probably would have already sold it to one of his clients but since it wasn't recognized it was purchased cheaply and cleaning by a professional in Britain revealed that it was a rare helmet series quadrans. These little tidbits and information are what make provenance research fun for me.

    Cr118.4-1200.jpg
    cr118.4Provenance-2000.jpeg
     
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  14. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    So I have had a new tip on this tag. A friend (EB) on Forum has a list of coins sold in the 1970s by a dealer called "Bert" who he thought (for reasons he is not sure of) was related to Superior. I attach a picture of my tag beside the list of coins signed by "Bert". Compare for example the S of Satriena (mine) with the S of Sicily (Bert) and the G of Gens (mine) with the G of Gela (Bert). And the general flow etc. I'm pretty sure it's the same handwriting and well done for EB for spotting the similarity.

    Does anyone know who "Bert", US coin dealer, in the late 1960s to 1970s, might be? I think this is a promising lead so am keen to track him down. Bert.jpg
     
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