Security at coin shows

Today I saw something at a coin show I've mentioned many times before about security. At a dealers table where I mostly purchase coins, one guy was just purchasing a massive amount of coins. All were in plastic looking casses and each one individual coins. Couldn't quite see what they were and really didn't want to stand over him. All appeared to be the older dollar sized coins though. Not really meaning to pry but actually trying to see some of the coins in the cases that I was interested in, I could plainly see him writting out a check for $20,000. His check was a standard personal check with his name, address, phone number on the top and easy to read even with my lousy eyesight. He sort of shoveled all those plastic encased coins into a sachel with out much regards to safety of the coins nor who may be watching.
After he left I asked the dealer how can you trust a check for that amount and was told that guy buys similar large amounts all the time.
I sure wonder how long it's going to take a criminal to see and spot all this type of transactions. Sure wonder if he looks to see if being followed after he leaves the show.
As usual I didn't spend to much myself on coins but a dealer had his daughter there selling those girl scout cookies and I invested $20 for 5 boxes of those. It was exceptionally crowded and I found out why when someone mentioned the time. Just found out I was an hour late getting to the show due to the change last night in time here. That show normally opens at 9AM and it was already well past 10AM when I got there.

 

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There is so much going on that thefts go on all the time!! With many
People at one table its hard for one dealer to keep track of everyone
And it doesnt take much for someone to stick there fingers in to the
Till !!

 

I have seen big tranactions like that many times too. Often times with stacks of 100 dollar bills instead of checks. No one seems overly worried about it. I know that I or one, am still very concious of my surroundings especially when leaving, even though I rarely spend over $200 at a show.

 

Excellent topic, Carl !

I disagree with mpcusa'a notion that "thefts happen all the time"; that is an overly negative viewpoint. Considering the enormous frequency of dealer's setup and breakdown, and the many thousands of people arriving and leaving coin shows, thefts are relatively uncommon. I certainly don't feel threatened.

That said, I certainly use common sense and take reasonable precautions.

Perhaps some folks will enjoy Steve Ellsworth's commentary :

http://butternut.org/coins/tip8.html

 

At our monthly show, The Knoxville Coins show we have been very lucky indeed.
It's been going on for 28 years now and we never had an incident but,
We have had several thiefs (probably 4, 1 a women) known though who work the floor by sitting at dealers tables and going through stacks of 2x2's and then putting some coins in hidden places. We never caught one though but have banned them from the site.
We now have armed security in uniform on the floor and that's a big help.
Most coin show robberies never happen during or at the show that I've heard of. They happen when folks leave and are targeted or followed when they (if they do) make a stop for food or something along the way.
Many dealers have pistols of course laying on their back table or on the person. Probably about 12 pistols are ready for action and heaven help a body if they tried to out right rob during or inside the show - cross fire would be deadly I'm sure.
There are many things that can be done. One thing I always did when I ran it was just get up from time to time and walk around really looking and let them know I was looking at them.
Most people are honest to a fault here and it helps by the caliber of people we have.
I've had stangers bring me coins they found dropped on the floor and once someone (not a dealer) found $5000 on the floor in a bank envelope. He brought it to me and said he found it lying on the floor. He knew I would find the owner and I did a couple hours later. Of course the man that lost it gave the finder a hundred for his honesty and me $50 for just keeping it safe. I didn't want it but he insisted so "what are you gonna do"?

It's threads like these that help other less experienced people learn and there are many ways to stay safe at coins shows.

 

I was at my local coin shop a while back when some guy bought a fair amount of older slabbed gold and payed a couple thousand in cash. I just kinda stood there in shock holding two 20 dollar bills LOL. It is honestly no wonder that there are so many coin show, and shop thefts.

 

It never hurts to carry your pistol with you at a show, especially if your state allows Concealed Carry.

 

Over the past couple of years, I have seen a few people spend a lot of money at a coin show. In my observations, they are typically not alone and also look like they do this quite often. My guess is that they have taken some security precautions. TC

 

The really bad thing about all this is that so much depends on location. By that I mean, and I've said this in the past, there are places in this country where people leave thier doors open while gone, keys left in thier auto while shopping and many other similar situations. On the far other side of that is there are places where you have bars on all the windows and doors and still get robbed.
In that statement that thefts happen all the time, unfortunately that is true in some areas. And worse yet is the many robberies that are not reported by either the individuals robbed, the police don't carry through with the reports and naturally the newsmedia. The really wrong point of that is the less coin robberies are reported, the less individuals seek protection.
Again, this problem is excessive in some areas. If you consider the amount of crime reported in the Chicago area compared to what actually happens, most people would run from that area as fast as possible. At coin shows I've found dealers that have been robbed either on the way to the show or on the way home. Some didn't even bother to report that since they know full well nothing will ever be done. Others that have reported them also find that little to nothing is ever done.
You may not feel threatened but possibly you live in an area where it is reasonably safe to come and go anywhere with little to no problems. In an area where there is from 500 to 900 murders REPORTED inside the city limits per year, a simple coin robbery is insignificent. We have had several robberies on my block alone and in one instance, only coins were stolen and one of the residents ended up in the hospital. Nothing ever made even one little story in any paper, on the radio nor on TV. Just to common.
Situations like this always makes me really cautious when leaving a coin show. And to flash a check book with a name, address and phone number, is really not to smart.

 

Big money exchanges hands at every show. Theives are everywhere, some more, some less and some not at all. It all has to do with location.

I would hope that folks doing these big transations are insured and protected. By protected I mean they should be carrying a firearm with the appropriate permit.

 

That's a good whitepaper on security...

Funny that Steve Ellsworth is mentioned on this topic...

Butternut was at the Virginia show on Saturday. I stopped by their table and spent time talking with him and John Koebert. Very nice, helpful, and knowledgable guys; IMO impressive. As busy as John was, he took time to answer some questions I had about about a Talbot, Allum & Lee cent I brought to the show.

IMO knowledge and good customer service goes a long way. They had a nice selection of colonials too; I ended up buying three Vermonts from them.

 

I have had several dealers ask me to participate in large transactions and watch their backs. I have witnessed alot of 6 figure cash transactions. Protection,, Don't leave home without it. Watch your back and be mindful of your surroundings.

We recently had a baseball attack indecent at a local show. The dealer got hit a few times before a slew of people had the gentleman on the ground outside before the police arrived. I think the culprit in this case was happy to see the police arrive. He kinda of got hurt a little when he fell down.

Use caution, Don't flash wads of money, be diligent in your shopping. I always wear a short sleeved shirt when attending a show. If you reach into your pocket for a loupe while at a dealers table, dont say anything just make sure that he sees your hand is empty before it enters your pocket. Common sense things folks will save alot of aggravation down the road should something go hirewire.

 

One more point to really let sink in.
It's only money! If ever faced with your money or a round in the chest don't just hand it over to them offer to load it in their car.
Don't ever get to feeling that because you have a pistol, shotgun or machine gun your invincible, your not. I learn long ago that I was not the toughest dude walking. That is reseved for the person that has nothing left to lose - he will beat you each and every time.

To many times I get the feeling that so many think this (coins or money) is of ultimate value. In the big scheme of things it's only stuff. Just like dust or dirt this to will not be yours any longer at some point in time. That's not an opinion it's a fact!
If you get home safe and unarmed and continue to be of value to your family and others is worth more than all the coins there are.

 

Absolutely I agree. It's only money. My 22 year old son got mugged yesterday afternoon at knifepoint. Even though he is a 3rd degree black belt in karate, he handed over his wallet and didn't try to resist. His masters (higher ranked instructors) always told him that, unless he was in full control of the situation, handing over a wallet was much less riskier that a confrontation where he didn't know the outcome.

Biggest hassle is that the X$O#!X (remember your cartoon profanity) robber took all his ID and he had no additional TSA valid ID in his college apartment. Since he had a plane flight this morning (Spring Vacation) we spent yesterday afternoon on the phone with the Chico police department, United Airlines and the TSA to figure out what totally unofficial documentation the TSA would accept for him to be allowed to get on an airplane. What the TSA did accept (as of 62 minutes ago) was a copy of the police report and an e-mailed scanned copy of his passport which was at home.

Moral of the story:
be aware of your situation.
if confronted with a threat that you do not have total control over, your life is worth much more than what's in your wallet.
keep backup ID at home or in your dorm/apartment if at school

 

What I have a hard time with is the notion that dealers get robbed to and from shows but don't report it. Insurance through the proper carrier is not that expensive, I have it on my collection. And dealers can be protected in transit. My insurance even covers this to and from my house and my bank safety deposit box. In order to process a claim, a police report needs to be processed. If dealers are running around to shows with uninsured goods, they are demonstrating poor judgment and bad business practices. I could see unreported theft from individuals but not dealers.

 

Mostly true. HOWEVER, as many today are finding out about insurance companies, not to smart to report a large collection of coins or anything of value to them. May not sound like the right thing to do but today everything you report to an insurance company goes into a computer. This information is available to many, many people. Some are only part time, some here today and gone tomorrow, some are there just to find out information. When they leave that company, difficult to know how much info they take with them. Lots of info today fits on a simple flash card of 2, 4, 8 GIG or higher memory.
Knowing this, some dealers refrain from notifying an insurance company of their possessions. Also, notifying them also means someone now has records of what you own and for tax purposes, also not to smart for some dealers.
An example of how much an insurance company knows is today I found something on my auto insurances that was questionable so I went to a local agent of thiers. I only had to say my name and a receptionist brought up everything on her computer as to my address, age, phone number, marital status, any accidents, traffic citations, childrens names and addresses, quantity of cars, everything about those cars and on and on and on. I could see all this due to the monitor was slightly tipped towards me. The point is she is new there.
Summation is not to let to many know what you have.

 

I love those Girl Scout cookies.

 

I can understand the violation of, privacy of information, at insurance companies. But if your not going to file a claim for loss then why pay the premium for insurance? If you have borrowed money from a bank to finance your inventory and business, you are probably required to have it. And since the bank it the technical owner of it, you are required to report it's theft, especially to the bank. It's their collateral, it just can't arbitrarily disappear. If however you outright purchased your inventory, you might as well keep the insurance premium money instead. Are their any dealers who can explain their feelings on this?

 

I suspect your missing the point. Many dealers don't pay for such insurances since they don't have that type of policy. Most, naturally not all, dealers are sort of off the record dealers. By that I mean as a coin dealer, they don't exist. From what it sounds like your thinking of a coin store or dealer that has a legitamate, paper trailed, receipt giving buisness.
I go to from 2 to 4 coin shows a Month. I would estimate that at least half, possibly more, dealers are doing coin shows as a part time, off the record, no trails type of buisness. These do not want nor have any type of coin insurance. Having such a policy would mean they would now have to become a legitamate, tax paying, paper work type of organization.
Also, I suspect that even dealers with a real, true to life, coin store that does coin shows also does that on the side. Meaning they can sell coins not on the stores inventory. :whistle:

 

ME too. Sure wish they wouldn't cost so much.