Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Searching for coins from Kassander's sons
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="kirispupis, post: 8088493, member: 118780"]Hello everyone,</p><p><br /></p><p>As part of my "Philip II, Alexander III, and the Era of the Diadochi" collection, I've been after a coin for Alexander V and Antipater I. The problem is I've run into some circles trying to identify which coins (if any) they minted. Since I'm at a dead end, I thought I'd ask the experts.</p><p><br /></p><p>The first stop for Alexander V coinage I checked was <a href="https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/kings/alexander_V/i.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/kings/alexander_V/i.html" rel="nofollow">Wildwinds</a>. They list three bronzes: Imhoof GRM 2, Laffaille 318, and Mionnet I, 821. However, on further inspection, Imhoof GRM 2 and Mionnet I, 821 appear to be the same coin. Not only that, but this looks to be the same as <a href="http://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.2131" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.2131" rel="nofollow">Price 2131</a>. The Price coin is listed as Miletos 323-319 BCE, which most auction houses seem to agree with.</p><p><br /></p><p>I looked further into Price 2131, and found that the symbols and mint marks on 2131 are in line with other coins from this area around this period. Since Alexander V and Antipater I co-ruled Macedonia from 297-275 BCE (roughly), I'm not seeing how this could be attributed to them.</p><p><br /></p><p>That leaves the Laffaille coin, which as far as I found is represented by a single copy sold by CGB. I could find no resources defining why Laffaille believed this coin to have been minted by Alexander V. Also, given apparent misattributions with the other two coins, I suspect this one.</p><p><br /></p><p>So, I took a different avenue. I've found <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334291110_Mathisen_Antigonus_Gonatas_and_the_Silver_Coinages_of_Macedonia" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334291110_Mathisen_Antigonus_Gonatas_and_the_Silver_Coinages_of_Macedonia" rel="nofollow">Mathisen </a>to be a good source for later Macedonian Alexander coinage (my Ptolemy Keraunos tet was attributed by CNG through him), but he starts with Demetrios I Poliorketes taking the throne in 288 BCE. However, in his footnotes, he references two papers by Ehrhardt regarding earlier coinage.</p><p><br /></p><p>In Ehrhard's first article, <a href="https://archive.org/details/journalofnumisma02n2jour/page/25/mode/2up" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://archive.org/details/journalofnumisma02n2jour/page/25/mode/2up" rel="nofollow">The Coins of Cassander</a>, he says this:</p><p><br /></p><p><i>These latter cannot be earlier than 305, nor later than Cassander’s death, for his sons struck coins with their own names and types;</i></p><p><br /></p><p>Well, <i>that's</i> interesting. Kassander had three sons:</p><ul> <li>Philip IV, who ruled first and lasted 4 months before dying of wasting disease</li> <li>Antipater I, who co-ruled with Alexander V before throwing him out</li> <li>Alexander V, who ruled with Antipater I before being tossed out, then was reinstated before Demetrios murdered him</li> </ul><p>However, I can find no mention of issues from <i>any</i> of his sons in their own types. The article seems to infer that everyone should know what these issues are, but I don't. I moved to the second article, <a href="https://archive.org/details/journalofnumisma04n4jour/page/85/mode/2up" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://archive.org/details/journalofnumisma04n4jour/page/85/mode/2up" rel="nofollow">A Catalog of Issues of Tetradrachms from Amphipolis</a>. This at first provided exactly what I was looking for.</p><p><br /></p><p><i>Group VIII (297-294 B.C.)</i></p><p><i>61. In 1. field, star over obelisk over X: under throne, wreath. M. 642; *SNG Copenh. 706. 5 spec.; 5 obyv.; 5 rev.; linked w. 61a.</i></p><p><i>6la.In |. field, obelisk over star over X; under throne, wreath. J spec.; 1 oby.; 1 rev.; linked w. 61.</i></p><p><i>(further listings removed for brevity)</i></p><p><br /></p><p>Great! So these coins can be attributed to Kassander's sons! Easy peasy, or is it? Hey, wait a minute. I recognize these coins. This is the Uranopolis mint.</p><p><br /></p><p>A tet from Uranopolis is in my "Stage 3" list, so I certainly wouldn't mind moving it up. But Ehrhardt is attributing it to Amphipolis. Pretty much every auction house today attributes them to Uranopolis. It makes sense, because the star matches those on the well-known Uranopolis bronzes, and the pillar resembles Mt Athos. The auction houses also agree with the current dates in Pella of 300-290 BCE.</p><p><br /></p><p>So, is this like some of my other coins, where there's an overlap and I'll never truly know whether it's a 100% attribution? I considered doing that, but decided to investigate the Uranopolis issue more.</p><p><br /></p><p>Although I can no longer find the articles, the following is a summary of my research:</p><ol> <li>Starting the Uranopolis coinage at 300 BCE is really just a guess. It could have occurred as early as 305 BCE.</li> <li>It's likely that coinage at Uranopolis stopped in 297 BCE, since Alexarchos no longer had the military backing of Kassander for his utopian society. Did Kassander's sons allow the "Uranopolis experiment" to continue? What data we have left about the city indicates it didn't last for long, so the presumption is no.</li> </ol><p>Therefore, I believe the Uranopolis mint is a very weak attribution for Kassander's sons. What does seem clear, however, is that there's widespread numismatic belief that they <i>did</i> mint coins, but I haven't been able to find any decent attribution.</p><p><br /></p><p>Would anyone have any tips or know of specific coins? I'd hate to cross off Kassanders sons from my list simply because I can't find a single coin that can with some probability be assigned to them. </p><p><br /></p><p>For example, Molossi bronzes range from 360 - 325 BCE, only 6 years of which were ruled by Kleopatra. If the coins were minted in equal proportions each year (which they weren't) then that gives only a 17% chance of being hers. Similarly, my Ptolemy Epigonos bronze is attributed to 246-221 BCE, but Ptolemy Epigonos died in 240 BCE, so there's only a 24% chance it's his (note: there are coins that are 100% attributable, but I've found no evidence any are in private hands). </p><p><br /></p><p>So, I'm willing to have a partially attributable coin, but I've yet to find one anywhere realistic.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="kirispupis, post: 8088493, member: 118780"]Hello everyone, As part of my "Philip II, Alexander III, and the Era of the Diadochi" collection, I've been after a coin for Alexander V and Antipater I. The problem is I've run into some circles trying to identify which coins (if any) they minted. Since I'm at a dead end, I thought I'd ask the experts. The first stop for Alexander V coinage I checked was [URL='https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/kings/alexander_V/i.html']Wildwinds[/URL]. They list three bronzes: Imhoof GRM 2, Laffaille 318, and Mionnet I, 821. However, on further inspection, Imhoof GRM 2 and Mionnet I, 821 appear to be the same coin. Not only that, but this looks to be the same as [URL='http://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.2131']Price 2131[/URL]. The Price coin is listed as Miletos 323-319 BCE, which most auction houses seem to agree with. I looked further into Price 2131, and found that the symbols and mint marks on 2131 are in line with other coins from this area around this period. Since Alexander V and Antipater I co-ruled Macedonia from 297-275 BCE (roughly), I'm not seeing how this could be attributed to them. That leaves the Laffaille coin, which as far as I found is represented by a single copy sold by CGB. I could find no resources defining why Laffaille believed this coin to have been minted by Alexander V. Also, given apparent misattributions with the other two coins, I suspect this one. So, I took a different avenue. I've found [URL='https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334291110_Mathisen_Antigonus_Gonatas_and_the_Silver_Coinages_of_Macedonia']Mathisen [/URL]to be a good source for later Macedonian Alexander coinage (my Ptolemy Keraunos tet was attributed by CNG through him), but he starts with Demetrios I Poliorketes taking the throne in 288 BCE. However, in his footnotes, he references two papers by Ehrhardt regarding earlier coinage. In Ehrhard's first article, [URL='https://archive.org/details/journalofnumisma02n2jour/page/25/mode/2up']The Coins of Cassander[/URL], he says this: [I]These latter cannot be earlier than 305, nor later than Cassander’s death, for his sons struck coins with their own names and types;[/I] Well, [I]that's[/I] interesting. Kassander had three sons: [LIST] [*]Philip IV, who ruled first and lasted 4 months before dying of wasting disease [*]Antipater I, who co-ruled with Alexander V before throwing him out [*]Alexander V, who ruled with Antipater I before being tossed out, then was reinstated before Demetrios murdered him [/LIST] However, I can find no mention of issues from [I]any[/I] of his sons in their own types. The article seems to infer that everyone should know what these issues are, but I don't. I moved to the second article, [URL='https://archive.org/details/journalofnumisma04n4jour/page/85/mode/2up']A Catalog of Issues of Tetradrachms from Amphipolis[/URL]. This at first provided exactly what I was looking for. [I]Group VIII (297-294 B.C.) 61. In 1. field, star over obelisk over X: under throne, wreath. M. 642; *SNG Copenh. 706. 5 spec.; 5 obyv.; 5 rev.; linked w. 61a. 6la.In |. field, obelisk over star over X; under throne, wreath. J spec.; 1 oby.; 1 rev.; linked w. 61. (further listings removed for brevity)[/I] Great! So these coins can be attributed to Kassander's sons! Easy peasy, or is it? Hey, wait a minute. I recognize these coins. This is the Uranopolis mint. A tet from Uranopolis is in my "Stage 3" list, so I certainly wouldn't mind moving it up. But Ehrhardt is attributing it to Amphipolis. Pretty much every auction house today attributes them to Uranopolis. It makes sense, because the star matches those on the well-known Uranopolis bronzes, and the pillar resembles Mt Athos. The auction houses also agree with the current dates in Pella of 300-290 BCE. So, is this like some of my other coins, where there's an overlap and I'll never truly know whether it's a 100% attribution? I considered doing that, but decided to investigate the Uranopolis issue more. Although I can no longer find the articles, the following is a summary of my research: [LIST=1] [*]Starting the Uranopolis coinage at 300 BCE is really just a guess. It could have occurred as early as 305 BCE. [*]It's likely that coinage at Uranopolis stopped in 297 BCE, since Alexarchos no longer had the military backing of Kassander for his utopian society. Did Kassander's sons allow the "Uranopolis experiment" to continue? What data we have left about the city indicates it didn't last for long, so the presumption is no. [/LIST] Therefore, I believe the Uranopolis mint is a very weak attribution for Kassander's sons. What does seem clear, however, is that there's widespread numismatic belief that they [I]did[/I] mint coins, but I haven't been able to find any decent attribution. Would anyone have any tips or know of specific coins? I'd hate to cross off Kassanders sons from my list simply because I can't find a single coin that can with some probability be assigned to them. For example, Molossi bronzes range from 360 - 325 BCE, only 6 years of which were ruled by Kleopatra. If the coins were minted in equal proportions each year (which they weren't) then that gives only a 17% chance of being hers. Similarly, my Ptolemy Epigonos bronze is attributed to 246-221 BCE, but Ptolemy Epigonos died in 240 BCE, so there's only a 24% chance it's his (note: there are coins that are 100% attributable, but I've found no evidence any are in private hands). So, I'm willing to have a partially attributable coin, but I've yet to find one anywhere realistic.[/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Searching for coins from Kassander's sons
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...
