Scarce Bust Type Caracalla Ant.

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Mat, Jul 9, 2020.

  1. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    About a month ago I parted with my older Caracalla ant to @Justin Lee because I picked up this one.

    I mainly bought it because it was much heavier than my older example & I always prefer heavier types to lighter ones & I know this obverse bust type is much scarcer for this reverse.

    Caracalla (198 - 217 A.D.)
    AR Antoninianus
    O: ANTONINVS PIVS AVG GERM, Radiate, bearded, draped, and cuirassed bust right, seen from behind.
    R: P M TR P XVIII COS IIII P P, Jupiter seated left, holding Nike and scepter; at feet to left, eagle standing left, head right.
    Rome Mint, 215 A.D.
    RIC IV 260v; RSC 277b
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  3. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

    Great coin, Mat
  4. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    The eagle looks like a plucked chicken. On the other hand, do we have any idea why there were so many portrait variations? Was there a code, like officina 1 used one bust and 2 used another?
    rm6750bb0104.jpg rm6760bb0196.jpg rm6780bb0184.jpg
  5. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Great coins, Doug.
  6. nicholasz219

    nicholasz219 Well-Known Member

    That is a scarcer bust type. I might have seen one other. It’s a great portrait. Even with the chicken. I’d be happy adding that myself. Nice pick up.
  7. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Nice Ant, @Mat, congrats on the scarcer find. I have not seen him in that garb.

    I am not sure that is an Eagle, and it doesn’t look like a chicken. The head is too big.

    I think @Mat has the first example of a PENGUIN on a Roman Coin! That being an EMPEROR Penguin...

    He has the super rare commemorative issue of the Roman Expedition to the South Pole.


    RI Caracalla 198-217 AR Denarius MONETA
    Ex: @Blake Davis
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  8. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

    I like this bust type and your coin for its clear depiction of Roman scale armor (lorica squamata) on Caracalla's back. That's a nice detail in my opinion.

    And of course @dougsmit has a splendid example of the Pluto type I'm currently looking for! What a nice Cerberus!

    Mine is the same bust type but unfortunately doesn't have any underworld deities or three-headed dogs:
    Rom – Caracalla, Antoninian, Venus Victrix stehend.png
    Caracalla, Roman Empire, AR antoninian, 213–217 AD, Rome mint. Obv: ANTONINVS PIVS AVG GERM; bust of Caracalla, radiate, draped, cuirassed, seen from behind, r. Rev: VENVS VICTRIX; Venus, draped, standing l., holding Victory in extended r. hand and spear in l. hand, leaning on shield. 23mm, 4.60g. Ref: RIC IV Caracalla 311C. Ex JAZ Numismatics, Ex Mat collection.
  9. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    Nice new Caracalla, Mat. I really like the bust on it. My two are the same reverse type, but they're still different enough for me to love and want to keep both.

    Caracalla - Antoninianus Luna Biga Bulls ex Kelly 2993 new.jpg
    AR Antoninianus. 5.18g, 23.6mm. Rome mint, AD 217. RIC IV 284a corr. (draped and cuirassed; see plate); RSC 396a. O: ANTONINVS PIVS AVG GERM, radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right, seen from behind. R: P M TR P XX COS IIII P P, Luna Lucifera wearing crescent on head, fold of drapery in circle round head, holding reins and driving galloping biga of bulls left.
    Ex Michael Kelly Collection

    Caracalla - Antoninianus Oxen Biga.jpg
    AR Antoninianus. 5.19g, 24mm. Rome mint, AD 215. RIC 245c; BMCRE 121. O: ANTONINVS PIVS AVG GERM, radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right. R: P M TR P XVIII COS IIII P P, Luna Lucifera in biga of oxen galloping left, fold of drapery billowing in semicircle around head.
    Ex Stevex6 Collection, CNG E-sale 297 (27 Feb 2013), lot 436; ex Carthago Collection; ex CNG E-sale 186 (16 Apr 2008), lot 197
  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    I obviously am too dense to pick up on what makes Mats Jupiter bust different from my Pluto bust other than the windswept crown on mine. For that matter, my bull biga bust has a few slightly raised bumps raising the question if it differs more from a poor strike than intent. However, that coin seems to have a shoulder button making it more like zumbly's first coin (and unlike the second which is seen from the front). We know that every die was an individual effort but this is not a 'one or the other' matter if it shows degrees of compliance to some cataloger's distinctions. Of the coins shown here, I have seen fewer of the 'from the front' type but I do agree that the preferable style shows the scales whether or not these are rare. I return to the question on whether the mint was making some distinction on the issue according to the bust style or if we are just seeing the random whim of the cutter that day.
    As a matter of fact, the dog was what forced my purchase of that coin along with what I called the 'windswept' crown which I prefer strongly to the upright look. I certainly would not suggest a micro-managing subtype listing based on the matter but I suppose it would make the die a candidate for a 'fine style' designation. Similarly, did anyone notice the difference of the pose of the bulls on zumbly's biga when compared to the other two shown here? That reverse shows the weight of the animals thrown back as if rearing up while the other two show straight rear legs as if the biga were making forward progress. Every die is a bit different. I am glad we are spared sub-type numbered distinction until we get to a point that a die study identifies each of the dies used for the type. I have no idea of how many bull reverse dies were used or how many show bulls rearing, prancing or charging. I am, however, glad that the scholars avoided sub-typing every little variation.
  11. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    I'm frustrated Justin didn't post the one I parted with to him.

    Here is my older Ant, which does have Pluto.

    Caracalla (198 - 217 A.D.)
    AR Antoninianus
    O: ANTONINVS PIVS AVG GERM, , radiate and cuirassed bust right.
    R: P M TR P XVIII COS IIII P P, Pluto seated left, extending right hand, holding vertical scepter in left; at his feet to left, Cerberus seated left, turning his three heads right.
    RIC IV 261c; RSC III 299a; BMCRE V 124
    Limes, octavius, 7Calbrey and 7 others like this.
  12. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter Amen-Ra-Hotep

  13. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing Supporter

    Thanks, @Mat!! Your new one looks wonderful!
    I was thinking the same thing!!

    Here's the one that I got from @Mat, not a very common reverse type or portrait style:

    Here's my other one I got a couple months ago, more common type:
  14. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing Supporter

    Sorry, buddy. Last night and this morning were busy.
    Severus Alexander and Alegandron like this.
  15. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

    Thats a good one @Mat

    This was a gift from a close friend.=:
    Caracalla AR Antoninianus.
    216 AD. ANTONINVS PIVS AVG GERM, radiate draped bust right, seen from behind / P M TR P XVIIII COS IIII P P, Serapis, modius on head, standing left, raising right hand & holding sceptre.
    Size: 22.5mm Weight: 5.3 grams
    RSC 349b. RIC 280b BMC 165. Hill (1964) 1573.
  16. curtislclay

    curtislclay Well-Known Member

    Early in 217 (TR P XX), each of Caracalla's rev. types was slightly changed. For the Diana in biga type, the change was from

    charging bulls, back legs straight, Zumbly's second coin, TR P XVIII-XX, to

    prancing bullis, back legs bent, Zumbly's first coin, TR P XX only.

    This change has generally not been noticed by cataloguers, but that was an error, since the change was intentional and indicated a new stage of the coinage!
  17. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Reviving this thread to post my only Caracalla antoninanus, since I didn't post it when the thread was active originally.

    Caracalla AR Antoninianus, 215-217 AD, Rome Mint. Obv. Radiate, draped, and cuirassed bust right, seen half from behind, ANTONINUS PIUS AVG GERM / Rev. Venus standing left, holding scepter in left arm and Victory on right hand, resting left elbow on round shield set on helmet, VENUS VIC-TRIX. RSC III 608(c), RIC IV-3 311(d), BMCRE 80-81, Sear RCV II 6784. 22x24 mm., 4.94 g. Ex: Stephen M. Huston Sale 153, Lot 126 (ca. 1997-98).

    Caracalla Antoninianus - Venus Victrix - jpg version.jpg

    Does anyone know what makes this bust "half from behind" as opposed to simply "from behind"? I have no idea, but that's what the description said. I can't say that I see much, if any, of a cuirass either. But I'm not very good at detecting such things unless they're really obvious!

    I had never heard of Stephen M. Huston, but from Google I gather that he was a well-known numismatist in the San Francisco area who co-authored at least one book (on an aspect of Constantine's coinage), and worked for a time for Victor England when he was starting CNG. I couldn't find the exact date of his Sale 153 (none of his auctions appears to have been online), but I did find a reference to his Sale 152 as having taken place in July 1997, and estimated the date of # 153 accordingly.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  18. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Very nice coin, Donna.
    DonnaML likes this.
  19. nicholasz219

    nicholasz219 Well-Known Member

    I don’t know if “half” from behind is a thing, but the coin is certainly nice.
    DonnaML likes this.
  20. Sulla80

    Sulla80 one coin at a time Supporter

    I like the coin, @Mat, nice portrait and the penguin, nike, and jupiter reverse is quite stylish too. Here's a coin from brother, Geta, that I liked for the portrait style - lacking the beard he looks a bit Julio-Claudian to me:
    Geta Genius.jpg
    Geta, As Caesar, AD 198-209, AR denarius, Rome mint, struck AD 208
    Obv: P SEPTIMIVS GETA CAES, bare-headed and draped bust right
    Rev: PONTIF COS II, genius standing facing, head left, sacrificing out of patera over lighted altar and holding grain ears
    Ref: RIC IV 59a
  21. octavius

    octavius Well-Known Member

    Portrait of Caracalla with very angry look

    Luna Lucifera driving biga of bulls in bronze - as.

    5wCXknY7W3Zqc9R2M9JeTTj46gEHm8.jpg Ks893SBdkb9W4DNnc2PoLi37yX5qyR.jpg
    Andres2, Limes, Alegandron and 6 others like this.
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