Same die but re-engraved during its lifespan?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Roman Collector, Jul 15, 2018.

  1. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I think--but am not sure--this sestertius of Julia Mamaea is a reverse die-match to a coin sold by Roma, E-sale 22, lot 711, November 28, 2015. Somewhere along the way, both dies seem to have been recut; the Roma example appears to have been cut as many as three times. What do you think?

    Post your coins struck from re-worked dies, Julia Mamaea sestertii, Venus Felix types -- whatever you feel is relevant.

    Mamaea VENERI FELICI Sestertius.jpg
    Julia Mamaea, AD 222-235.
    Roman orichalcum sestertius, 21.21 g, 30 mm, 12 h.
    Rome, 4th emission, AD 224.
    Obv: IVLIA MAMAEA AVGVSTA, diademed and draped bust right.
    Rev: VENERI FELICI, Venus standing right, holding Cupid and scepter; S-C across fields.
    Refs: RIC 694; BMCRE 190-194; C 62; RCV 8232; Banti 16.

    Here's the coin from Roma:

    Mamaea VENERI FELICI Sestertius Roma.jpg

    Now, side-by-side, rotated to nearly the same orientation:

    Mamaea VENERI FELICI Sestertius Reverse match.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
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  3. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    It appears to be a reverse die match. Nice coins
     
  4. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Hmm. There are many many differences-- differences not due to strike and wear. The reverse legend is similarly spaced and has similar letter shapes (but not the S-C), but is that enough to say that one was re-engraved? However, I'm not very familiar with re-engraving and haven't often looked at pairs of coins with this in mind.
     
    zumbly, ominus1 and dougsmit like this.
  5. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I posted what I considered to be a case of re-engraving on my page from long ago.
    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/feac6.html
    Recent eye surgery has me, temporarily at least, not able to render an opinion but I do know that there are more variables than I considered when I wrote my page and telling the difference between recuts and some oddities of striking will require very careful consideration. Even on a good day, working from photos will require extreme care while working directly from coin will require better vision.
     
    Marsyas Mike and Roman Collector like this.
  6. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I can't see how the two reverses could have come from the same die, re-engraved or not. I tried superimposing them and no amount of resizing, distorting, or rotating would make more than a few points match. Look at various points in the following animation. The exergual line and globe were aligned and RC's coin resized to make Venus roughly equal in height on both coins.

    CT-RC-MamaeaReverses.gif

    I also tried superimposing them with the reverse legends matched up but they were just too different to line up on more than a few points.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  7. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Thank you, @TIF . That took a lot of work and I appreciate it.
     
    TIF likes this.
  8. Andres2

    Andres2 Well-Known Member

    I agree with TIF, no die match and neighter is this one :)

    P1180980.JPG
     
  9. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    TIF has solved the mystery..case closed!... perry mason and woman judge.jpg
     
    Alegandron likes this.
  10. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    The obverse die used to strike the two coins below was reworked to correct the spelling of the empress's name.

    Before, with the incorrect ANNIAN :
    Herennia Etruscilla - Tarsus Apollo Lykeios 2561.jpg
    HERENNIA ETRUSCILLA
    AE29. 13.29g, 29.4mm. CILICIA, Tarsus, AD 249-251. RPC 1368 (18 spec). O: ΑΝΝΙΑΝ (sic) ΑΙΤΡΟΥϹΚΙΛΛΑΝ ϹƐ, draped bust right, wearing stephane, crescent behind shoulders. R: Τ - ΑΡϹΟV ΜΗ – ΤΡΟΠΟΛƐΩϹ around, Α /Μ / Κ - Γ / Β in field, Cult statue of Apollo Lykeios standing left on omphalos, head right, holding wolf by forelegs in each hand.

    After, corrected to ЄPЄNNIAN :
    Herennia Etruscilla - Tarsus Dionysos 2562.jpg
    HERENNIA ETRUSCILLA
    AE30. 11.15g, 29.8mm. CILICIA, Tarsus, AD 249-251. RPC 1371. O: EPEΝΝΙΑΝ ΑΙΤΡΟΥϹΚΙΛΛΑΝ ϹƐ, draped bust right, wearing stephane, crescent behind shoulders. R: ΤΑΡϹΟV - ΜΗΤΡΟΠΟΛƐΩϹ around, Α / Μ / Κ - Γ / Β in field, Dionysus standing left, holding cantharus over panther and thyrsus.
     
  11. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    I just got one Julia Mamaea recently from forum. Here it is

    Rome mint, weight 2.893g, maximum diameter 19.3mm, die axis 0o, 226 A.D.; obverse IVLIA MAMAEA AVG, diademed and draped bust right; reverseVESTA, Vesta standing half-left, veiled head left, palladium in right hand, long scepter vertical behind in left hand;

    77075q00 (1).jpg
     
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