Rough Surface vs Cast Bubbles

"ernstk"
"You still did not mention how you detect a fake transfer die made by CNC machines?"

What are the advantages and disadvantages of cnc machine vs casting and electroplating transfer dies?
Not sure why anyone would use cnc machine instead of casting them more producing them by electroplating.

 

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You and I are having a hard time communicating. I gave you a lot of credit at first because you listed some of those characteristics above. For your information, based on my past experience, when an organization gets around to publishing a fake, the counterfeiters have moved on.
You indicate that you monitor the forgery network, IAPN, and ancient forums. If you actually did, you would not be asking me obvious questions like:

What is the main way fake ancients are detected? I'll bet most posting here can answer that for you. That's why I started a discussion yesterday to help you out.

As for CNC dies...I made a decision almost fifty years ago THAT I DIDN"T CARE to know how a counterfeit/altered coin was produced. THE ONLY THING that mattered to me was to be able to detect them!

Tease: There are some micro characteristics on fakes (CNC? Who knows?) that I've shared with just a few professional authenticators. You are not one of them.

 

CNC machines produce very detailed transfers.

 

anyone can claim what you claim without proof it means just words at face value lol

 

CNC machine produce high quality die that matches to the bit of the original die so it basically creates an identical die that there would be no way to detect. Based on what I heard some very high end expensive coins sold in many famous big auction names are produced by CNC machines and their owners would never know what they got is indeed fake. actually the CNC made fakes is impossible to detect and no one including this Insider guy can detect a CNC made fake. its virtually and logically impossible. its same as I tell you that BMW makes some car produced in Mexico and some in Germany but they look identical there is no way for someone to distinguish these. The only key is patina but when a coin is cleaned that crucial factor is gone so that is why I never touch a cleaned coin since the chance of it being a CNC fake is huge.

 

1. there was no CNC 50 years ago
2. the fact that you don't care how a coin is produced shows well that your opinion on a coin worth as much as a word of ....

 

ernstk
"CNC machine produce high quality die that matches to the bit of the original die so it basically creates an identical die that there would be no way to detect."

That is stupid nonsense, the DETAILS on STRUCK COINS ARE DIFFERING WITH THE DETAILS IN THE ORIGINAL DIES !
Struck coins are missing details from the original dies (due to bad centering and not perfect strike) which were in the original dies.
And struck coins have NEW details (individual characteristics from striking, circulation and environment) which were not in the dies and which will be transferred into the transfer dies and on transfer die fakes, this details should not be found identical on coins from the same dies, for example identical scratches.

So there will be always some details missing in the transfer dies, that were in the original dies and some new details (individual characteristics from striking, circulation and environment) which should not be there.

To reconstruct the details, which were in the original dies is extremely difficult to impossible (because forgers are humans and will make mistakes).

Spotting transfer die fakes is very easy, it can only be complicated to prove it if you can not find the authentic mother but even then it can be possible prove that they are without a doubt fake.

 

ernstk, posted: "Anyone can claim what you claim without proof it means just words at face value lol

How true! Fortunately, I have no reason to prove anything to you or anyone else. You see, I'm very comfortable in my own skin and you'll never know what's true or BS because it is above your pay grade.

Unfortunately, your lack of simple English comprehension has become bothersome and has caused you to misquote me again. The state-of-the-art coins passing the TPGS's on occasion have micro defects. If these were known and corrected, it would make authenticating the best fakes very difficult. As I posted, I don't care if a CNC die or a mold was used to make a fake. Basic PUBLISHED technics of counterfeit detection which apparently you have not discovered cover both methods of manufacture.

ernstk, posted: "CNC machine produce high quality die that matches to the bit of the original die so it basically creates an identical die that there would be no way to detect.[ if you say so]. Based on what I heard some very high end expensive coins sold in many famous big auction names are produced by CNC machines and their owners would never know what they got is indeed fake. [True. However, you know about these coins because they were eventually detected.] Actually the CNC made fakes is impossible to detect [In your opinion. see my previous comment].and no one including this Insider guy can detect a CNC made fake. its virtually and logically impossible. its same as I tell you that BMW makes some car produced in Mexico and some in Germany but they look identical there is no way for someone to distinguish these. The only key is patina but when a coin is cleaned that crucial factor is gone so that is why I never touch a cleaned coin since the chance of it being a CNC fake is huge."

ernstk, posted:
1. there was no CNC 50 years ago.
2. the fact that you don't care how a coin is produced shows well that your opinion on a coin worth as much as a word of ....[ernstk ]"

 

ernstk, posted: : "...its same as I tell you that BMW makes some car produced in Mexico and some in Germany but they look identical there is no way for someone to distinguish these."

More nonsense. Apparently BMW does not use VIN NUMBERS in his country. .

 

your analysis is flawed. The forgers will pick the best and MS well centered mother that has almost no fault to create a die. Also do you know how many die variations exist?? Hundreds. how possibly you can even find the original coin that matches the fake die??? Unless you go through hundreds of old catalagues and museum inventories lol

 

Your claims on knowing fakes and not disclosing the technique , is same as I say I have the cure for covid 19 made in my basement lab and I am not disclosing it to the world but keeping it to myself . How ridiculous that sounds and how believable that is? loool. I believe you insider I believe you. you are a genius better than NGC better than all other coin companies out there. if that makes you happy Haha Haha . Why don't you make a second NGC business and use your genius to make some cash???

 

By the way I just showed that coin you said is fake to 5 other experienced sasanian collectors and they all agree it is genuine and badly cleaned. Ofcourse, they are all wrong and you are right. Sure... Think whatever makes you happy. Your opinion worth less than a penny for me and many serious collectors out there. No one even knows how old are you. You could be a teenager impersonating as expert loool

 

Guys, you don't have to argue over this...

Nobody wants a fake coin... But I don't think the risk is that big. It is all about economics. Perfect die copies from perfect original coins that are then struck with traditional techniques is a hard and troublesome process that doesn't make financial sense to the forger. For cheap and medium-priced coins it would only make sense if they did it in large numbers. But multiple die-matches get spotted easily nowadays with all the resources available and will lead to the coins being scrutinised and the forgeries caught (as it usually happens). For higher end coins they could try striking smaller numbers, but the fact that they are higher-end coins will lead to them getting scrutinised anyway and again forgeries will be caught in most cases. Especially for really high-end coins the scrutiny would be so big that even scientific methods may be applied too. So, I don't think it is worth for them going into all this trouble to make fake coins and that is why most forgeries are cheap easily detectable ones. That is my humble opinion.

 

May I just advise anyone tempted to reply further. You might want to first scan through the previous postings of ernstk, before deciding whether it's worth the effort. Like these below:

"Govn interference in market always worked and we see it clearly in Chinese system"
"I would blame government for ineffectiveness if I cant afford a house or car and I am sure many will."
"I should say caracalla is my fav emperor as he eliminated any threat to his rule a lesson to be learned for weak politicians today."

The above sentences were not removed by a moderator so I hope it's ok to reproduce them here. I shall stop here.

 

Lol! This is coin talk ancients. Where all the ancient coins at homeboys???
I'll get archaic on some punk@$$ if I gotta!

 

Let's stick to topic at hand and not mix other threads here. I defended what I said based on facts in other threads and let the readers judge themselves.

 

I was optimistic like you before but the profit is huge specially in high end coins and there is no lab or scientific tests that could be done.Some high end coins purchased recently by rich Arab sheikhs were fakes and trust me these rich Arab sheikhs have top of the cream authenticators at hand and if those guys can't find a high end coin is fake most likely others won't also know that. I am talking about gold coins sold millions of pounds and were fakes!

 

ernstk, posted: "your analysis is flawed. The forgers will pick the best and MS well centered mother that has almost no fault to create a die. Also do you know how many die variations exist?? Hundreds. how possibly you can even find the original coin that matches the fake die??? Unless you go through hundreds of old catalagues and museum inventories lol"

On the surface this comment makes sense; however, he is uninformed about the "real world." Apparently some folks are discovering the "mother" coins or fakes with identical flans and defects.

ernstk, posted: "Your claims on knowing fakes and not disclosing the technique , is same as I say I have the cure for covid 19 made in my basement lab and I am not disclosing it to the world but keeping it to myself . How ridiculous that sounds and how believable that is? loool. I believe you insider I believe you. you are a genius better than NGC better than all other coin companies out there. if that makes you happy Haha Haha . Why don't you make a second NGC business and use your genius to make some cash???"

Actually, I was just starting a verification company with a sticker like CAC. Before I filed my business plan with my investors I was hired by NGC as an authenticator. I'm a lazy person who would rather get a steady check than go out on my own and that is the rest of the story.

BTW, you would not ask such a stupid question if you knew anything about TPGS expenses.

ernstk, posted: "By the way I just showed that coin you said is fake to 5 other experienced sasanian collectors and they all agree it is genuine and badly cleaned. Ofcourse, they are all wrong and you are right. Sure... Think whatever makes you happy. Your opinion worth less than a penny for me and many serious collectors out there. No one even knows how old are you. You could be a teenager impersonating as expert loool"

Hopefully you did not slander me by continuing to lie about my comments to your buddies.

 

ernstk, posted: "Let's stick to topic at hand and not mix other threads here. I defended what I said based on facts in other threads and let the readers judge themselves."

Great idea! I hope you can follow your own advice and stop posting ignorant nonsense about BMW automobiles.

 

ernstk, posted: "I was optimistic like you before but the profit is huge specially in high end coins and there is no lab or scientific tests that could be done.Some high end coins purchased recently by rich Arab sheikhs were fakes and trust me these rich Arab sheikhs have top of the cream authenticators at hand and if those guys can't find a high end coin is fake most likely others won't also know that. I am talking about gold coins sold millions of pounds and were fakes!"

You sure are posting a lot of "stories." What country do you live in? Do you work for Interpol? Have you ever been in the same room as a CNC machine? Do you own any ancients valued over $5000? Did you purchase them at auction?

My bio is listed for anyone to see. Your bio is not. You have demonstrated a total ignorance of coin authentication. Perhaps that's because you are a teen troll posting lies , nonsense , and misinformation while seeking attention.

Now, I'm going to stop "feeding" you.