Roman Social War: Italian bull goring a Roman wolf

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Bart9349, Nov 14, 2015.

  1. Bart9349

    Bart9349 Junior Member

    Question for our Ancient experts:

    I was recently reading a review of the book "SPQR" by Mary Beard.

    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/oct/18/spqr-by-mary-beard-review-rome

    In the review, I read this interesting paragraph:

    During the social war, in the first century BC, Rome fought a glorified civil war with much of Italy (her former allies, socii, give the conflict its name). The allies mounted a propaganda battle, minting coins that showed an Italian bull goring a Roman wolf. “The coinage certainly blazons some anti-Roman imagery. But it was based entirely on the weight standards of Roman coinage, and many of the other designs were directly borrowed from Roman issues.” It’s a neat illustration of the problems that faced Rome’s enemies: even in insulting it, they couldn’t separate themselves from it.

    Reminder about the Social War from Wikipedia:
    The Social War ("Social" from socii ("allies"); also called the Italian War, the War of the Allies or the Marsic War) was a war waged from 90 to 88 BC between the Roman Republic and several of the other cities in Italy, which prior to the war had been Roman allies for centuries.


    My question: Is this one of the coins in question? (Not my coin or picture.) Any other background information on the coinage from this period?

    bull_wolf.jpg

    bull.jpg


    Thank you in advance,


    guy
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2015
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  3. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Looks like your coin was used as jewelry at one point due to the solder spots. Otherwise it looks like a very cool coin. Shame I know nothing about it, but that bull killing the wolf looks awesome. My 5 year old son saw the picture and asked if that was the big bad wolf (I was reading Red Riding Hood to him last night.)
     
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  4. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Looks like a gator to me. Nice find, but I know nothing about this type.
     
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  5. Bart9349

    Bart9349 Junior Member

    BGB.jpg

    Possibly another coin from the series. (Not my coin or picture.)

    HN Italy-420 Denarius Social War Bacchus in wreath, Bull goring wolf

    Denarius. 90BC. Bovianum mint. **. HN Italy/420 Social War. Obverse: Social War Bacchus in wreath,. Reverse: Bull goring wolf adapted from Coins of the Roman Republic in the British Museum, 1910 edition, Plate 98

    guy
     
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  6. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    I need one of these. No, really, I need one!
     
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  7. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    You and me both.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2015
  8. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Socii War denarii are very expensive...
     
  9. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    How expensive would you say? I have no idea what the price of this is.
     
  10. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    I have been looking a bit. Starting in low thousands and up, dependent on issues and quality.
     
  11. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Then I definitely won't be getting one anytime soon. A couple of thousand dollars would buy a very solid ancient coin collection. It would make no sense for me to forego building up a solid collection for the sake of just one coin. Maybe sometime in the distant future.
     
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  12. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    If you want a cheaper issue related to the Social War, you should look into the L. Calpurnius Piso Frugi denarii like the one I posted here https://www.cointalk.com/threads/newp-beautifully-toned-l-calpurnius-piso-frugi-denarius.270751/ . Even nicer examples like mine can be had relatively cheaply, and they are some of the most plentiful Republican denarii out there.
     
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  13. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

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  14. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    Just doing my part :)
     
  15. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    The Social War coins that are expensive are the ones from the 'other side'. The OP coin looks to me to be pinned to a museum display (do they have two or is this a copy?). I would estimate that coin into 5 digits. More ordinary types might only be a few thousand but this shows the wolf going down. Most of these coins are just copies of RR types with non-Latin letters.
     
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  16. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    My comment about price was for "the other side" as Doug points out. Rome certainly continued minting coinage during the Socii War as @red_spork discusses. I have a few during this time. However, I covet the Socii issues and am on the prowl.
     
  17. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Are you listening Secret Santa???
     
  18. Bart9349

    Bart9349 Junior Member

    Sorry for the "bump up" of this post, but I found this interesting information while researching Oscan, the language of many of the allies during the Socal War, from Wikipedia:

    Coinage of the Social War:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_of_the_Social_War_(91–88_BC)

    Some of the iconographic themes were original, while others were borrowed from the Roman coinage.

    When borrowed, the themes acquired new meanings or resonances. For example, the heads on the obverse was usually a personification of Italia depicted as a goddess with a helmet, which replaced the head of Rome, accompanied by a legend reproducing his name, ITALIA, in the Latin alphabet or VITELIU (víteliú = Italia) in Oscan alphabet (there is a unique copy, actually in the de Blacas collection, known to report the double LVITELLIU [vítelliú]).

    Inscriptions
    The inscriptions were partly in Oscan and partly in Latin characters. The pieces were struck by a central mint with two different and simultaneous issues, one for the Oscan-speaking and one for the Latin-speaking citizens.
    Legends often record the names of the chief leaders of the Revolt: Quintus Poppaedius Silo, Gaius Papius Mutilus, with his title Imperator, an unknown Numerius Lucius (?), and others.


    Coin from British Museum:

    http://www.britishmuseum.org/resear...blican Coinage (1974)/!//!!//!!!/&numpages=12

    Reminder about the Oscan language:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscan_language


    guy
     
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  19. Carthago

    Carthago Does this look infected to you?

    Social War issues vary from somewhat scarce to quite rare and sell for quite a premium because they're totally cool. :D

    The one below is similar to the OP's and sold for 26,000 CHF in 2013 (plus 17.5% commission in all likelihood). I don't have the benefit of my library right now to really look it up, but I believe this issue is on the extremely rare side.

    image00095.jpg


    I've got a few of them and this is my favorite.

    Bellium Sociale Syd 635 NAC 2015.jpg
     
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  20. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    While 'your favorite' is a great coin, it still is a copy of a regular RR coin distinguished by the style and non-Latin letters. The bull goring wolf is a power of ten cooler by virtue of not only being an original type but being a slam in the face of Rome. This is like finding a barbarous Falling Horseman of the fourth century showing the horseman turning around and spearing the big Roman.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/5143518830/in/album-72157631147044064/
    The above version of the OP photo explains that this is the display in the British Museum of their two coins. If those are all that are known, price becomes moot.
     
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  21. Carthago

    Carthago Does this look infected to you?

    Man, Doug, tough audience! I totally agree with the 10 times cooler factor but am having difficulty locating one that isn't pinned down in a glass case and under armed guard! :arghh:
     
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