Roman Republican Denarius # 39

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by DonnaML, Nov 11, 2020.

  1. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I was lucky to receive this one: DHL Express notified me on Monday that the package containing it had been delivered to me -- which it hadn't -- and provided "proof" of delivery consisting of the signature of somebody I never heard of (who doesn't even live in my apartment building, as far as I can tell). Even though I had given them a signature release instructing them to leave the package at the door of my apartment if I weren't home. With a great deal of effort, I finally found a DHL customer service number allowing me to talk to a live person, who said that they would do an investigation. I didn't have much hope, though, and assumed that the DHL driver had just given the package to a random stranger in my building, who walked off with it. But my doorbell rang yeaterday evening, and it turned out to be someone from the building next door to me, explaining that they had delivered the package to her by mistake. Why she signed for it in the first place (since the envelope had the correct name and address on it), and why it took her 24 hours to walk over to my building to give it to me, I didn't bother asking. I'm just happy to have it, even though it doesn't give me much confidence for the future!

    Roman Republic, C. Mamilius Limetanus, AR Serrate Denarius, 82 BCE Rome Mint. Obv. Draped bust of Mercury right, wearing petasus with two wings, caduceus over left shoulder, control letter “F” behind* / Rev. Ulysses walking right, wearing mariner’s clothing and pileus, holding staff in left hand and extending right hand towards his dog, Argus, who stands left at Ulysses’ feet with his head raised towards him; C•MAMIL downwards in left field, LIMETAN [TA ligate] upwards in right field. Crawford 362/1. RSC I Mamilia 6, Sear RCV I 282 (ill.), BMCRR 2717 and 2720-2721 [two examples of control letter “F”]. 21 mm., 4.04 g., 9 h.**

    Mamilius Limetanus (Mercury - Ulysses & dog) jpg version.jpg

    *The only known control-letters for this issue are the 11 letters of the alphabet necessary to spell out a version of the moneyer’s name, C LIMETANVS C.F. See Crawford p. 377. There are 100 different obverse dies known for this issue (id. p. 375), meaning that there should be approximately 9 different dies per control-letter, assuming that they were distributed equally.

    **The reverse design alludes to the moneyer’s claim to descent from Telegonus, son of Ulysses and Circe. See Crawford p. 377. See also id. p. 220 (noting in connection with Crawford 149 that the Mamilii were a Tusculan family and claimed descent from Telegonus, Tusculum’s founder, through his daughter Mamilia). The family’s descent from Ulysses through Telegonus also explains the depiction of Mercury -- in legend, the great-grandfather of Ulysses -- on the obverse. Id. p. 377. For the tale of Ulysses’ encounter with his old dog Argus [Argos in Greek] upon his return to Ithaca, see Homer’s Odyssey, Book 17, lines 290-327.

    I think I've mentioned before that I've wanted one of these for a while, but rarely see them in decent condition. So when I saw this one, which actually has complete images on both sides, including the actual dog that's the point of the story, I had to have it! In hand, the details are sharper than the dealer's photo makes them look.

    I didn't know that the control-letters for this issue form a code spelling out the moneyer's name until I read it in Crawford. I'm familiar with the Aeqvitas code on certain coins of Probus (which @dougsmit has written about), but I don't remember coming across anything like that before on a Roman Republican coin. Does anyone know of any other Republican examples of such a code, whether spelling out the moneyer's name or another word or phrase? I wonder if we collectively own enough different examples of this issue to spell out the name.

    Please post your own examples of this coin, or any other coin -- Republican, Imperial, Provincial, or Greek -- showing Ulysses/Odysseus. I don't think he was a popular figure on Roman coins, given his generally poor reputation in Rome, at least after Virgil's negative portrayal of him in the Aeneid as cunning and deceitful, as opposed to manly, forthright Trojans like Aeneas. He was always my favorite among the Greek heroes, though, when I read the Iliad as a child. Especially because of the Odyssey. I liked smart people; what can I say? Perhaps he appears on Greek coins? (OCRE and RPC yield 0 results for either name.)

    Or: post other coins showing Mercury. Or: post coins with dogs not depicting Diana, since I think we had a thread about Diana recently.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
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  3. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

  4. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Nice Denarius, @DonnaML . :) One of my favorites.

    Sorry about the scary delivery. Had a similar situation with a large box of items from Amazon... stated it was delivered, but showed up anonymously at our door 3 days later and opened. Glad to have received it, all intact... but, frustrating.

    I captured mine a few years ago, as it reminded me of Blue when she was young, and she was able to walk a lot.

    upload_2020-11-11_12-55-11.png
    Roman Republic
    C. Mamilius Limetanus. 82 BC.
    AR Serrate Denarius (20mm, 3.82 g, 10h).
    Rome mint.
    Draped bust of Mercury right, wearing winged petasus; to left, L above caduceus /
    Ulysses walking right, holding staff and extending hand toward his dog, Argus. Crawford 362/1; Sydenham 741; BMCRR Rome 2724; Mamilia 6. VF, toned, minor die break and traces of die rust on obverse.
    Ex: CNG
     
  5. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    Nice coin! I agree that having the dog on the flan is critical.

    Cr362s1SR282.jpg

    Same as the OP type, but with letter A.

    Next is a Republican type with flans normally too small for the dies.

    Cr422s1bSR379n1356REXARETAS.jpg
    This is the famous "REX ARETAS" type which is the first Republican type to refer to an event involving the moneyer (as opposed to an ancestor of the moneyer). In this case, it refers to King Aretas of Nabataea surrendering to the moneyer (under Pompey) in 62 BC.
    M. Aemilius Scarus (and P. Plautius Hypaseus) in 58 BC. Crawford 422/1b. Sear I 379.
    It is almost impossible to get both "REX ARETAS" and the camel's head on the flan. I had two with the camel's head cut off before I found this one, which squeezes the "REX ARETAS" legend in exergue. Of course, the camel is a symbol of Arabia and the legend makes the reference to the king who was surrendering, so we really want both on the flan. I just checked vcoins and they have one wonderful coin that does, very expensive, and five that don't have both.

    Back to the OP. If the coin doesn't have the dog, it doesn't tell the critical story.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  6. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    My L is fourree. I was not aware of the letter code but that is my fault for not buying Crawford. Until recently that book cost more than my interest in the subject and, truthfully, I always held Crawford's attitude toward fourrees against him.
    r15410bb0273.jpg
     
  7. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..o wow!...nice Donna!:)....i gotta get one o does....i love Mercury & his hat...not to mention Ulysses & his Dog...:joyful:
     
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  8. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    LOVE this type and super LOVE your portrait of Mercury aaand those caduceus:artist: Coingrats!!!
    Here's my well handled/bargain basement version (you can barely seethe dogs rear end):
    20190326_124717_5D41D8AF-D46A-4165-80B4-D242CCC0D9B7-406-00000098586BED42.png
     
  9. curtislclay

    curtislclay Well-Known Member

    It would be interesting to know who first recognized that the control letters on this Ulysses and Argus coin spell out the moneyer's name. Apparently a comparatively recent discovery; Babelon in 1886 stated that the control letters were all of the letters of the Latin alphabet. Grueber in 1910 would also appear not to have known, or at least he doesn't state the fact in his description and commentary on the BM examples. See note 1 on p. 343: "The mint-marks used by this moneyer are limited to single letters of the alphabet placed only on the obverse." Sydenham 741 (1952) also seems ignorant of this fact; "on obv. l. caduceus and variable letter, rarely with a dot." It would have been helpful if Crawford 362 (1974) had named the discoverer of this interesting detail, or had taken credit himself if he was the first to notice it!
     
  10. Scipio

    Scipio Well-Known Member

    here is my Mamilius Limetanus, which I like much except for Ulysses’ missing feet...
    8AFBFEFA-3B13-40AB-85D9-E9ABD12E9AF0.jpeg
    BBA63C09-FBA7-44F7-A785-963877BB66AB.jpeg
     
  11. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

  12. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I am glad all ended well for you/ DHL definately got sloppy. Really nice RR example:D
     
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  13. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    @curtislclay, it seems logical that Crawford himself may have discovered this. He specifically notes at p. 377 that all the known control letters are attested in the Paris collection at the Bibliothèque Nationale, and the Paris collection is one that he personally reviewed himself. (See the list of collections cited, at Crawford p. 129, with an asterisk marking the Paris collection as one that he reviewed.) It's not surprising that Grueber didn't notice the pattern, since it appears that as of the time BMCRR was published in 1904, the British Museum had only 10 of the 11 control-letters (missing the "V"). See BMCRR at pp. 343-344.

    One thing Crawford doesn't note is that the same 11 letters can also be used to spell out MAMILIVS, so arguably the "code" was meant to stand for the moneyer's entire name -- C. MAMILIVS LIMITANVS C.F.

    I assume, by the way, that if anyone had discovered examples of this issue with control-letters not part of the moneyer's name, at any time in the 46 years since Crawford's publication, that fact would have been publicized. I checked Schaefer's online RRDP, and there's nothing new there; I couldn't even find all of the known letters.

    I also take it that if there were any other Republican coins with such a code, one of our experts would have mentioned it.

    As far as my question about other coins depicting Ulysses/Odysseus are concerned, there's nothing in the OCRE and RPC indexes, which seems to rule out Imperial or Provincial coins. The only other Republican examples appear to be the several bronze coins comprising Crawford 149, issued in the previous century by Lucius Mamilius, a presumable relative of this moneyer, and showing Ulysses standing on a prow leaning on his staff. See also BMCRR pp. 97-98. There do appear to be a few ancient Greek coins depicting Odysseus; see https://www.cngcoins.com/Search.asp..._TYPE_ID=3&VIEW_TYPE=0&MAX_COUNT=10000&PAGE=1
     
  14. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Correction: there is at least one Roman Imperial coin depicting Ulysses, listed as Odysseus at OCRE for some reason:

    http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.2.tr.780

    RIC II Trajan 780

    objects: 2
    Date
    A.D. 98 - A.D. 117
    Denomination
    Denarius
    Mint
    Rome
    Obverse
    Bust of Mercury, right; caduceus and E behind
    Reverse
    IMP CAES TRAIAN AVG GER DAC P P C MAMIL LIME TAN: Odysseus walking right to meet his pet Argos

    The British Museum example:

    TRAJAN  Mercury-Ulysses and dog.jpg

    Obviously, as the legend itself indicates, the design of this coin was taken directly from the Republican issue I posted here -- presumably, from an example bearing the control-letter "E." It is one of the series of more than 50 so-called "restored coins" issued by Trajan, taken from Republican originals. See RSC II Trajan, "Restored Coins of Trajan" No. 12 at p. 104.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  15. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Well-Known Member

    Great coin, @DonnaML, and glad it made it to you. Although you've already seen this one recently - I'll post it again. Limetanus Ulysses 2.jpg
    Here's another series that uses a code on the controls. Crawford:
    "The only control letters known on this issue (contra Bahrfeldt, iii, 37) spell the moneyers praenomen and nomen, L. CAS{S}I with one S retrograde, and naturally each control letter has multiple dies."
    "The tablet marked VTI ROGAS was a favorable vote on legislation"

    On this coin, I like the story that L. Cassius Longinus spelled his name in code, because he didn't want to be mistaken for the notorious member of the recently exposed Catiline conspiracy whose task it was to burn down the city of Rome also L. Cassius Longinus, but not the same person as the moneyer.
    Longinus Vote.jpg
    L. Cassius Longinus, 60 BC, AR Denarius, Rome mint
    Obv: Veiled and draped bust of Vesta left; C to left, cylix to right
    Rev: Voter standing left, dropping tablet inscribed V (Uti rogas) into cista to left
    Ref: Crawford 413/1; Sydenham 935; Cassia 10
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  16. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Thanks for pointing that one out. So there are at least two.
     
  17. curtislclay

    curtislclay Well-Known Member

    Donna,

    A very interesting observation that the same letters could also include MAMILIVS !

    The key to the original discovery (letters for C LIMETANVS C.F.) would be to notice that 11 Latin letters occur regularly on these coins, but the other 10 letters never, and to ask yourself why. You probably wouldn't notice the ten missing letters unless you were a collector or scholar attempting to acquire or record every control letter known for that issue, or you had access to a hoard that contained numerous specimens for each of the 11 known letters, but none at all for the other 10 letters.

    It's unclear to me whether Crawford made this discovery himself, or took it over from someone else. In either case he should have specified who made the observation. By mentioning that Paris has specimens of all 11 attested letters, he was just naming the location of specimens showing all of the known varieties, not implying that it was these Paris coins that led him to the discovery of C LIMETANVS C.F.
     
  18. Everett Guy

    Everett Guy Well-Known Member

    great coin! I learn alot from your purchases../posts. Nice of the neighbor to give it back.
     
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  19. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Delightful! This one of Ulysses and Argos has been on my want list for a long time. I'm happy you were able to obtain an example for your collection.
     
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  20. abc123

    abc123 Active Member

    Nice addition to your collection, Donna! Happy it found its way home to you.

    Crawford does appear to have made this discovery himself.

    Crawford, M. H. (1966) “Control-Marks and the Organization of the Roman Republican Mint”, British School at Rome 34, 18-23.

    “C. Mamilius Limetanus...used as control-marks only those letters which made up his name, C sometimes being followed by a full-stop, TA sometimes appearing in monogram form. Apart from this piece of vanity, the issue is peculiar in that each die is represented now by comparatively few specimens.”
     
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  21. octavius

    octavius Well-Known Member

    Very handsome coin Donna. I am amazed that you actually got to speak to a real, live person at DHL!

    a couple of my "dogs"...
    1. 2 Quadrantes of RR. C 220 BCE
    2. semis of Tuder, Umbria c. 220 BCE.

    251512.jpg 4439988l.jpg 601441.jpg
     
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