Roman Imperial Janus

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ken Dorney, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Has anyone else ever wondered...why does Janus feature prominently on Republican coins but very rarely on Imperial? With the exception of a few rarities they primarily appear for Pertinax and Geta. Pertinax I can understand. His major fault was that he wished to change just about everything and to fix all the problems the empire was experiencing during his time. Looking to the past for him was also looking to the future. I get that and why he issued coins with the theme. But why Geta? There doesn't seem to be any significant writing (that I am aware of) that would explain why he would issue such a coin.

    One can theorize of course. Was Geta referring to his father, Septimius, who accomplished a great deal in a very short time frame, or was he looking further into the past? The death of Marcus Aurelius was less than 20 years previous but many living people would certainly remember the time of the 'good' emperors and all that it bought.

    Or, of course, it could be a certain societal anomaly (compared to other cultures and times of course). In the US Ronald Reagan popularized a similar concept in 1980 during his debate with Jimmy Carter (which would be revisited by Barak Obama decades later). One might wonder if during this time people were looking only to the future and not the past.

    And of course, the other part...why wasn't Janus featured after this?

    Food for thought...

    4806.jpg
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Aethelred

    Aethelred The Old Dead King

    Great post and a really fantastic reverse type. Thank you for sharing!
     
  4. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    Pure idle speculation here. But I wonder if it had something to do with some lingering anxiety over the emerging principate and the abandonment of Republican Rome, for all intents and purposes. Would "looking backward" in the early years of Empire prompt a dangerous nostalgia for the Republic and its more egalitarian approach to government? I can imagine Augustus, Tiberius, etc. saying, "Keep looking forward Romans! Nothing to see back there!" :joyful:

    Of course, such speculation is problematized by the fact that Augustus was very "nostalgic" for Trojan or pseudo-Trojan origins. But maybe he would've been just fine with people forgetting the grand traditions of the Republic of Cincinnatus or Pompey.
     
    Ryro likes this.
  5. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    I can't say exactly why Janus fell out of favor, but supposedly there is a reverse of this coin that shows Janus minted by Gallienus?
    3738892l.jpg
    From the Leu Numismatik site

     
  6. Aleph

    Aleph Well-Known Member

    Is it certain that this is Janus? I recall seeing that this may be a janiform representation of Jupiter which fits with the thunderbolt. This could also tie in with the contemporaneous legend CASTOR for a similar type. One could envision Geta and Caracalla as represented as castor and Pollux, twin sons of Jupiter. The janiform Jupiter could represent the divine sons of Jupiter. I am not sure of the details of how this could work but I think the general scheme is plausible. Janus was a very old god. The only other imperial ruler (beyond the Severan era) who used Janus as a type -that I know- was Hadrian.
     
    Nicholas Molinari likes this.
  7. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Also Commodus, but who's counting? As I said, outside those that are rare, why is not Janus prominently depicted? I dont know and it is a very interesting question.
     
  8. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I love this type of speculation and find it more fun that reading the "known" facts :)

    Very nice coin, Ken!
     
    Nicholas Molinari likes this.
  9. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Great coin, and a very interesting question!

    Hypothesis: Janus was one of the few deities who was uniquely Roman (with no Greek equivalent), and as the Empire had become so cosmopolitan, deities that would be more broadly understood became favoured on the coinage.
     
  10. Mike Margolis

    Mike Margolis Well-Known Member

    Again the change of Republic to Empire dovetailed with the precessional shift of the astrological/Platonic ages. In the underground secret societies the impact of the discovery that the stars were moving beyond the yearly seasonal shift must have been enormous. the Platonic year of the 26,000 year shift and the slow change of the pole star was big secret powerful knowledge and guarded for only initiates as to what it meant. Two new religions(and a lot of smaller ones) were budding and both no doubt had some influence especially Mithraism. He was conceived as the way bigger "mover" of the ages and usurped or absorbed many of the old gods. Father Time was being personified in a whole new way for many and with big military connections. It was a new Aeonic age. And there were also a few upstarts we must not forget about who believed they had the guy who was the real mover and shaker. They even wrote a rock opera about the whole drama. And the age of the Pisces/fish and the fisher of men's souls had appeared for some. mithras.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
    Marsyas Mike and Ryro like this.
  11. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    I must say I'm not fond of these speculations that historical & social changes are somehow rooted in mysticism. Is there any academic foundation to this particular instance of it? By which I mean: is this view represented to some appreciable extent in the peer-reviewed academic literature?
     
  12. Mike Margolis

    Mike Margolis Well-Known Member

    Do you understand at all how the ASTRONOMICAL understanding of the Earth and the cosmos has shifted peoples cultural and religious understanding? Do you really think the historical records are anything more than a thin biased surface level of this amazing journey of human and life experience? Different folks have different ranges of knowledge and experience. It is fine that you do not respect the views I post here. Some others I am sure do not either and they have said so also on occasion. Have you studied the sacred math and geometry of any of the ancient peoples? Greek, Arabic, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Hindu..... Are you familiar with the revealed teachings of the Eleusian mysteries? How about The Egyptian hermetic and Gnostic teachings. "Mysticism" is a ridiculous catch-all word for what people do not understand about certain ancient schools of knowledge. Math and quantum physics are corroborating ancient precepts of the various streams of initiatory wisdom. Read the Tao of Physics. Or the "Egyptian Science" by Schwaller de Lubicz. We have a different knowledge base and experience. all I ask is that you respect that.
     
    Orfew likes this.
  13. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Hmmm... in 1969 they came up with this song anticipating a great change in humanity due to a supposed alignment of the stars... nuttin' happened... Except a very nice song!



    I would rather COIN ON! than get into teachings and mysteries or some hidden agendas.

    upload_2018-4-10_21-40-57.png
    Bruttium Carthage occup 2nd Punic War AR Half-Shekel 216-211 Tanit Horse SOLAR-O HN Italy 2016 SNG Cop 361-3

    @Ken Dorney ... great thread! No I do not have an Imperial Janus... my "Youngest" Janus is this one:

    (I have a few older Janus')
    RR Atili Saran AE As 148 BC Janus ROMA Prow S 399 Cr 214-2a.jpg
    RR Atili Saran AE As 148 BCE Janus ROMA Prow Sear 399 Craw 214-2a
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
    Marsyas Mike, dlhill132, Ryro and 4 others like this.
  14. Mike Margolis

    Mike Margolis Well-Known Member

    Yeah- love that little pop opera song- and you know what? in the fifty years since, you can now fit that song and thousands more of the highest quality audio(and video) all on a little silicon chip smaller than the size of the smallest fraction of the obol. nothing changed? what did your phone or computer look like then? ancient coins are a scroll that contains not only political defeats and military victories and vicissitudes. You might comment on a range of issues they cover. There are other areas including cultural, social and religious values that are also reflected and carried by our ancient coinage. That is the beauty of it all.
     
    Severus Alexander likes this.
  15. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    I believe it is the height of hubris to believe that we know anything at all. Socrates reportedly said "The only thing I know is that I know nothing". There are those who think the world is knowable, and there are others who realize that it is not. In front of the class I have to constantly remind students that because something is newer does not mean that it is better. Because people were born 2000 years ago does not mean that they were less intelligent that anyone today, and being born recently does certainly not make people today more intelligent than those of 2000 years ago. There has been much valuable ancient knowledge lost in the last few thousand years but many of us are so convinced of our own brilliance that we refuse to heed the lessons of the past and of those who lived then. Another recommended read would be "Hidden Connections" by Fritzof Capra.
     
    Numinaut, Ryro and Mike Margolis like this.
  16. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    For every piece of knowledge that has stood up to rigorous inquiry (so far, at least), there are hundreds of failed hypotheses that have been shown to be false, and thousands of untested (often evidence-free) theories that haven't been scrutinized. I was just trying to figure out which category the ideas you presented fell into. The only reasonable way to do this is to find out if the ideas are ones that experts countenance. If experts have rejected the ideas or if they haven't scrutinized them, the only reasonable thing for the non-expert to do is to take them with a huge grain of salt. (Is that a lack of respect? I don't think so.) Experts = those who specialize in applying good reasoning methods (deductive and inductive logic, broadly construed) to the topic, and who open up their reasoning for other experts to scrutinize. (Knowledge acquisition is a collective enterprise.) If you think there are other ways of getting knowledge, e.g. sacred geometry (as opposed to geometry), then I would have to disagree in the strongest terms!

    That's quite a radical skepticism, @Orfew! But supposing we don't know anything for sure (maybe knowledge requires a higher level of certainty than we're capable of achieving), aren't there still better vs. worse ways of placing our bets? (I've described how I would place my bets in my answer to @Mike Margolis above.) And in general, isn't it reasonable to say that for a factual topic capable of being treated scientifically (broadly speaking; I include history here), we've probably got a lot more right than the ancients did? For matters of wisdom (how to lead one's life, that sort of thing) it may be we're no better off. We're certainly not more intelligent, I would never suggest such a thing. But more knowledgeable? That seems indisputable! Not to deny that some knowledge has been lost, of course. I'm constantly rueing the loss of the library of Alexandria, for instance. :(

    I'll check out the Capra book, and/or maybe another one by him, The Systems View of Life. Published by a reputable academic publisher (Cambridge University Press), author with good credentials (though mostly in physics, not philosophy I might add), etc... a great example of something worth reading. Thanks for the suggestion!
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
    Ryro likes this.
  17. Mike Margolis

    Mike Margolis Well-Known Member

    It is a valid scientific hypothesis to view that the world is built on five-dimensions(cue the music) since the golden phi proportion is only found in living organisms on Earth. And mathematical patterns often reveal higher dimensional interfaces with lower dimensions. Ie.- read "FLATLAND". Some Great scientists have believed in a soul realm, a fifth dimension as interpenetrating 4-D time/space. It just made sense that life evolves with an interpenetration of vast dimensions. It also explains inconsistencies in the fossil record of evolving forms. These scientists included Newton and DaVinci who made great use of the phi and religious texts and writings of the ancient mathematical giants. You are right @Severus Alexander there really is no difference between sacred geometry and geometry. The organization of the soul realm or "aether" of Plato(dodeckahedron) is where the seven dimensional grids are used. As you see from the Pythagorean triangle the three upper world grids develop from flat plane 2-D Euclidean geometry. Read the book 'Islamic Patterns" which develops the seven grids that ancients from China to Europe all used and studied, as did our founding dad Benjamin Franklin. The Platonic year that has a twelve "month"/Age progression built on the slow wobble of the Earth called precession all proceeds from geometric applications that are valid and based on the geometry of the circle and 360/365 days degrees mapped out to understand how civilizations evolve and change. This is a good discussion. goldendecagon.jpg Golden-Ratio-diagram-2.png goldenseashell.png pythagoreankameas.png loshu1.gif
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  18. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    I remember back in grad school a friend said the following which has stuck with me in all the intervening years "Research is not about finding answers, it is about finding better questions". The more we know about something, the less sure we become of it. That is, the more we know the more we realize we do not know. Over the years I have become far less certain about what I know, what is known, and what may be knowable. I am also focussed on the process of knowing and not so much on an end product. One very difficult concept for students is that just because you did not find what you were looking for does not at all mean that you did not find anything. We use reasoning skills and do research properly and with a plan because the nature of discovery is sometimes messy. Just think of how many discoveries happened by pure accident; cases where someone went looking for something and found something else entirely.
     
    Severus Alexander likes this.
  19. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    As others above have alluded to, it may have something to do with the growing centralization of the powers of the Princeps. Janus was a reminder of the upcoming new year and in Republican Rome, a reminder of new elections for everything from aediles to consuls. I am not sure that Rome's emperors, with their ever increasingly centralization of power in themselves, cared to remind the populace that meaningful elections were now a thing of the past, something as dead as Caesar's ghost.
     
  20. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I believe this is the same concept I was taught to the effect that those who are absolutely sure of their answers rarely understood the questions.

    I once worked for the company that 'invented' the microwave oven. It seems a researcher working with microwave radiation had a chocolate bar in his pocket. People of less intelligence would have just washed the shirt and missed out on the discovery.
     
  21. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    The more I learn about ancient coins the more I realise how much I LOVE em!
    I also don't have a empirial Janus. But here is my oldest (I think) RR and a RR Janus.
    CollageMaker Plus_20184521353781.png
    ANONYMOUS. Semuncia
    (Circa 217-215 BCE). Rome.
    Obv: Head of Mercury right,
    wearing winged petasus.
    Rev: ROMA. Prow of galley
    right. Crawford 38/7. Ex
    LANZ
    5.49 g. 20 mm
    Roman
    CollageMaker Plus_201845213751776.png

    Roman Republic Janus
    Anonymous (AT or TA
    series), As,Rome, 169-158
    BC, AE, (g 22.83, mm 32, h
    12). Laureate head of Janus;
    above, I, Rv. Prow r.; above,
    AT or TA; before, I; below,
    ROMA. Crawford 192/1;
    Sydenham 372
    (I hope I got the attribution right on this guy. I have 2 Janus's and neither were IDd when I bought them so I did some digging and think I got it right...)
     
    Marsyas Mike, dlhill132, Bing and 4 others like this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page