RIC claims it's common; it isn't

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Roman Collector, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I've been researching this recent acquisition:

    Faustina Jr IVNONI LVCINAE dupondius.jpg
    Faustina Jr, under Marcus Aurelius, AD 161-175
    Roman orichalcum dupondius; 13.23 g, 25.1 mm, 6 h
    Rome, AD 161-175
    Obv: FAVSTINA AVGVSTA, bare-headed and draped bust, right
    Rev: IVNONI LVCINAE, Juno standing left between two children, holding a third child on left arm
    Refs: RIC 1650; BMCRE p. 541, *; Cohen 137; RCV 5298; MIR 18.


    It appears to be much scarcer than RIC would imply. RIC says 1650 is "common."

    Capture 3.JPG

    I can find several examples of the corresponding sestertius, RIC 1649, but not a single example of the dupondius is to be found among the 31575 Roman imperial coins at The Coin Project, and none are to be found at Coin Archives or acsearchinfo. CNG has never sold one and none are for sale at V-Coins. The only example I could find online is this one from the Wildwinds database. It has to be scarce, if not rare. Anyone know of other examples online?

    Post anything you feel is relevant, of course.
     
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  3. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    Nice find! Not sure if the other volumes rate coins the same way but in RIC II for the Flavians a (C) actually means scarce, C2 and C3 are common and very common.
     
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  4. Carausius

    Carausius Brother, can you spare a sestertius?

    @Roman Collector , in your excerpt, RIC 1650 is an AE As, but you describe your coin as an Oricalchum Dupondius. I find no Dupondii listed for Faustina Jr. in RIC, though brass dupondius/copper as is listed interchangeably in Sear's RCV II. Sear gives your type a slightly higher value than other types, though not high enough to suggest tremendous rarity. This begs two questions:

    1. Are you certain you've got a Dupondius? It might just be a heavy As. Color is generally a good guide.

    2. At you looking for the right denomination(s) in your search? The As may be common and the Dupondius quite rare, or perhaps Dupondii are being misattributed as Asses (since RIC doesn't list Dupondii). Perhaps expand your search to include Asses, which might pick-up misattributed Dupondii.

    EDIT: I just ran a few searches myself and also find only Sestertii. This could be a case of over-population of a rare type in museum collections (not the first time RIC miscalculated based on museum collections' penchant for rare, attractive types) or just a plain error. Another possibility is that the type appeared in several pre-internet sales, and have not been recently resold.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
  5. Carausius

    Carausius Brother, can you spare a sestertius?

    RIC vol 3 uses CC for very common, C for common, S is scarce, R rare, etc. Thus @Roman Collector coin is not very common, though also not rare, according to RIC. This seems consistent with Sear's relative valuation for the type.

    EDIT: See above. If Sear based his valuation on RIC's rarity estimate, this too could be an error, or indicative of pre-internet sources for the type.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
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  6. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    Nice find! It wouldn't be the first time a coin has a rating of common in RIC and one would be hard-pressed finding examples online. I understand that most volumes of RIC surveyed mainly public collections to come up with their rarity ratings, so certain coins would be unavailable in the market even if they are common in museum collections, but I suspect sometimes a rarity of common is just erroneous.

    I showed this coin of Valerian a few days ago, but here it is again. Also rated common in RIC, but zero examples to be found on Wildwinds, Coinproject, acsearch, CNG, vcoins, ma-shops, gallienus.net, coryssa.org, OCRE, or the British Museum Collection's online database. I don't have access to Coin Archive's database, but if they have one there I'd love to see it.

    Valerian - Apollo Salvtari 1903.jpg VALERIAN
    Billon Antoninianus. 2.82g, 20.5mm. Rome mint, AD 256-257. RIC 76; Cohen 28. O: IMP CP LIC VALERIANVS P F AVG, radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right. R: APOLL SALVTARI, Apollo standing left holding laurel branch in right hand and lyre resting on rock in left.
     
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  7. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

  8. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

  9. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    A very cool find.
     
  10. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    RIC III does not distinguish between aes and dupondii for the Antonine women, listing them together under "As."

    The search terms used were "Faustina IVNONI" and "Faustina LVCINAE."

    This one is orichalcum, as you can see from the brassy color of the high points, especially on the reverse.

    I suspect you're right about this being overrepresented in museum collections.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
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  11. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Not only is that an apparently rare coin, but it is well-struck and well-preserved. That reverse is lovely.
     
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  12. Aleph

    Aleph Well-Known Member

    The original RICs like this one are close to useless for rarity. I can think of many examples rated common that are near unobtainable.
     
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  13. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Very nice OP coin, and I like the Valerian ant as well.
     
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  14. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

  15. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Nice coin and research, RC!

    Here's the opposite: a type of coin deemed highest rarity in Emmett yet I've seen many of them in my short collecting career:

    [​IMG]
    EGYPT, Alexandria. Trajan
    year 17, CE 113/4
    dichalkon
    Obv: Laureate head right
    Rev: rhino standing left; LIZ above
    Ref: Emmett 719v(17) R5, BMC 500

    Perhaps these smallest of Roman Egyptian coins just weren't as interesting to the museums or to the curators of collections surveyed for Emmett's book.
     
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  16. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    It was @TIF and SteveX6 postings that turned me on to capture this from the SteveX6 Collection. I got it because of a sentimental value to a friend that I grew up with.

    upload_2018-1-27_10-35-28.png
    RI Trajan AE Dichalkon Laureate hd L Rhinoceros walking L LI-Z yr 17 CE 113-114 12.9mm 1.25g Emmet 719 var. rhino right
     
  17. Carausius

    Carausius Brother, can you spare a sestertius?

    I don't know the circumstances of this particular coin type, but as collectors of ancient coins we are always at risk that our rarities will suddenly become common upon release of a new hoard into the market or the sale of an old collection. Consider the Cassius tripod types of the late Roman Republic as an example - from very rare to merely scarce in the blink of an eye. Maybe these dicalchalkons were genuinely rare when Emmett wrote his book, or perhaps it was underrepresented in museums as you suggest.
     
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  18. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Update. I found this one at OCRE, from the Münzsammlung des Seminars für Alte Geschichte der Albert-Ludwigs-Universität.

    Faustina Jr IVNONI LVCINAE dupondius Albert Ludwigs Universität.jpg

    It's a double-die match to my coin:

    Faustina Jr IVNONI LVCINAE dupondius.jpg

    This is the Wildwinds example; same obverse dies as those above; different reverse die:

    Faustina Jr IVNONI LVCINAE dupondius wildwinds.jpg

    One recently (Feb. 25, 2018) sold by Leu, with dies unique to it.

    Faustina Jr IVNONI LVCINAE dupondius Leu.jpg

    These are the only four examples I can find after an exhaustive internet search.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
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  19. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    This is just my sestertius:shy::

    Traditionally (and it still represents the consensus of scholarly opinion), coins of Faustina II bearing the legend FAVSTINA AVGVSTA were issued after Pius' death under Marcus Aurelius as Augustus (161-175 AD). According to some numismatics, coins of Faustina bearing this legend could have been issued while Marcus Aurelius was still Caesar and Antoninus Pius was still alive. Scholars are not willing to make this conclusion.
    Rome, ca. 161 - 164 AD struck under the authority of Marcus Aurelius
    33 mm, 26.15 g;
    Ref.: RIC III Marcus Aurelius 1649; Cohen 136;

    upload_2019-4-16_22-38-26.png upload_2019-4-16_22-38-43.png
     
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  20. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    I cannot comment as much on the Faustina II but I can comment on the Valerian I. Most of the modern on-line search engines are based on auction results. The problem with coins of rather low intrinsic value is that they generally do not show up in auctions and if they do are often grouped in bulk lots. As an example CNG charges the consignor a basic fee of $40. Than means if a coin on their E auction estimated at $100 goes for its opening bid of $60, the consignor gets $20 for his coin. So needless to say most consignors will not put coins in that they think will make less than $100 to $200. So needless to say there will be a lot of coins not showing up using these search engines. Another factor is that most of these search engines cover a rather short period of time. Most start sometime between 1998 to 2000. Even the largest Coin Archives and AC Search are somewhat limited, as neither really cover fixed price offering or E Bay.
    In regard to the older copies of RIC and their rarity guides. They can be cranky but generally speaking what would be considered common might today be considered perhaps scarce. What these individuals would do is visit the major numismatic holdings in Europe and if they were really adventurous North America look through these holdings and basically count up the coins. When the found that a particular coin was represented in most of the collections it would be labeled common. Some of the collections are truly massive, taking hundreds of years to put together. I remember looking at one volume of the SNG France and noting that about 20 % were coins that I had never even seen before.
     
  21. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    I cringe a little every time I think about what I would be like to be the guy (or gal?) who spent upwards of $3k on a bronze coin of "Nectanebo II" only to have the value come crashing down to ~$100 a few years later when it was demonstrated not to be either rare, nor a coin of the last native Egyptian Pharoah.

    One example that has been on my mind are coins of Constantine II as Augustus... they aren't common, but it's not exactly easy to find one on demand, especially since auction houses tend to misattribute them.
    Constantine ii augustus gloria exercitus.jpg
     
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