Returning a counterfeit ebay buy

The postal workers don't care if you don't tell them and they do not know. See how fast they do care if you tell them, while being recorded at the counter, you are mailing CF items.

Just try it, no big deal. They're not going to have you arrested, or at least I doubt they would.

 

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I don't care one bit what you think or what your version of 'observed reality' may be. Do you also believe I should have to provide compelling and incontrovertible evidence for that fact as well as things so simple you can simply go find out on your own and never have to rely upon anyone whatsoever?

What all do you doubt, and again, I truly don't care.

You believe the Federal Reserve is an agency or branch of the government for the United States of America and is controlled by Congress? At best it is quasi-government and it is well established to be a privately owned and chartered world bank that does as it dam well pleases.

So you tell me how it required nearly a triple act of Congress for the one and only audit of it by Congress, for a very narrow 3.5 year period, to have taken place.

Did congress approve or have any idea 29 Trillion was gone without any oversight and 1.4 quadrillion tied up in degenerate gambling? Just over 3.5 year period, I'll remind you.

Here, occupy yourself with this, the initially published reports were much shorter reads and very directly to the point.

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO Fed Investigation.pdf

Nothing about this is "politics", these are real world facts and anyone rational and awake knows these things, or certainly can determine on their own.

 

Gosh, I don't know. Do I need to poll every Congress member about this before I can tell whether it's legal to return a counterfeit coin through the mail?

 

Why would anyone walk up to the counter and say something like that? It's not smart to be talking coins with the clerk. I'm always in a line of folks and they don't need to know what I'm mailing. Your own safety should be on your mind.
I would love to see just one case where the post office came at someone for returning a counterfeit coin.

 

DID I SAY COIN? I SAID COUNTERFEIT and if you don't want to speak, make sure to boldly write it on the box so that it cannot be missed.

jeff, go ask your postmaster about mailing CF items period. Is that too tough for you?

 

https://tools.usps.com/go/POLocator...address2=&address1=421+8TH+AVE&city=NEW+YORK&


Here, many are open today.

Not all have a Postmaster 1st Class, but, I can't imagine any postal worker having acceptance charge duties not being able to help you.

 

There is no need to worry about sending back a counterfeit coin. If it was an issue, it would be big news to the hobby, but it's not.

 

Carry on and buy, sell and trade, with or without intent to defraud, all the CF and even stolen items you wish having them delivered via the USPS.

Your rationalizing does not address legality whatsoever, it patently sidesteps it.

 

Who other than you gives a rats backside. It's stupid to worry about it.
No more time for you. Have fun.

 

I am dealing with this now. 15 Morgans, all fake - including an 1885-CC and an 1895-S - each has the same flaw on the wreath - was an obvious issue - and of course bad pictures.

My concern is that they need to be destroyed - otherwise when returned, the seller will attempt to find another way to resell to someone that doesn't know better.

 

Yeah, any other little side discussions aside, I agree that it's a good idea not to return counterfeits, especially to a mass seller like the one @Brett_in_Sacto describes. I acknowledge the risk of fraudulent claims on genuine coins, but at some point eBay is on the hook to either make a call of who's lying or make both sides whole and eat the loss. I think there's a good chance that they do that more frequently than we think, and probably more frequently than they burn either legitimate buyers or sellers.

eBay does retain the option of disqualifying a buyer for Buyer Protection. I would presume they would do that for someone who makes too many claims, and even more quickly for someone who makes disputed claims against sellers with good records. I was worried at one point that eBay might do that to me, because as a bottom-feeder I did run into a fair number of fraudulent sellers -- but they're apparently really happy with my current activity patterns.

 

Go find a US counterfeiting law which does not specifically establish "intent to defraud" as a fundamental prerequisite for violation. That should keep you out of our hair for quite a while.

 

You already admitted that you haven't read the laws and can't be bothered to look them up, you really aren't qualified to be commenting on it.

Which is a rational concern, but if they have that many of them they probably have easy access to a supply unless they just bought a huge lot and those were mixed in.

It's really hard for eBay to nuke a buyers account. They basically have to be harassing a seller or getting caught trying to cut eBay out of the sales.

 

The above is only for modern currency & coins. When I was dealing with my purchased CF TD, and spoke with the SS, they did not want the coin back. The only CF's that they take possession of is 'current/modern' counterfeit coins and currency. They wanted me to either destroy the coin, or mark it (stamp) with the word "COPY", "FAKE", or "COUNTERFEIT". This is what I was told by the agent I spoke with in the Tampa, FL SS Office. Whether or not it is 100% correct, I don't know, but I can only assume it is.

The agent did tell me that under no circumstances should I send it back to the seller. Her reasonings were multiple; 1) it allows the seller to sell it again (we all know that), and 2) that if someone wanted to create a stink, I could be charged with dealing in counterfeit items. #2 really grabbed my attention.

For those of you who say/think it's ok to return a counterfeit item through the mail, or any other means, yes, you can do it, but you are also opening yourself up to the possibility of criminal charges.

With ebay, it's actually quite simple. Go to a coin dealer, TPG, or other coin specialist, have them certify that it is counterfeit, and send that letter back to ebay. Ebay won't have you send the coin back, and you will be fully refunded.

 

While this is correct, the problem is that until you prove their was no intent to defraud, you could get hung up in a legal quandry that can be a headache to get out of. IMO, I'd rather just not send it back, and not have to worry about dealing with the potential for the above.

 

This would, as would ANY marking identifying contents, invalidate insurance on the package. That's one thing that would happen.

As for you quoting when I said you were wrong, why not address the specific issues that I cited when I stated you were wrong:

1) You're referencing the IMM, which apparently doesn't matter to you.
2) The DMM requires intent to defraud or traffic in counterfeit goods to apply.

 

First, "coin dealer" is in no way synonymous with "expert". I do understand and respect your point, and it is certainly true that some are, but it is a painfully common misconception that all dealers are genuinely knowledgeable.

And with all due respect, for those of you who think it's perfectly acceptable to deem another guilty without ever truly knowing their motivations, you're arguably participating in and/or promoting simple thievery. eBay is nothing but a venue, and not the almighty decider of what's right and wrong unless they're covering any and all losses incurred by both parties. Otherwise, one that keeps something that does not belong to them, regardless of how noble their motives may or may not be, is stealing, which is rather ironic if you think about it.

Personally, I feel that a form of Blackstone's Formulation should apply here in that it's better if ten, twenty, or fifty guilty persons go unpunished than it is for one innocent to suffer an avoidable loss caused by nothing more than someone's insistence on playing judge, jury, and executioner.

 

This is what I have a problem with. It should HAVE to be one of their approved TPGs. As brooks mentioned dealer doesn't mean they are always right or even that some would be remotely qualified to make an assessment on the coin. Coin specialist is also far far to vague, any collector could say they were a specialist.

Not really. They have better things to do than to try and bring a case for simply returning a coin for a refund, that would almost certainly get laughed out of court. Any number of statements such as "I believe this might be fake", "I am not an expert and can't say this is real for sure" ect ect.

While what the agent told you is technically correct they were also giving you the standard speech that covers them legally. It is simply not a matter worth them spending hours on and coming out to give you a formal decision. Anything with law enforcement they will always error on the side of saying something could be a crime or you could be charged.

 

If they were mailed to you, take them to your postmaster or the Inspector General.

It is real simple and I don't recommend asking Superdave, baseballMS69+,
BB4Couth, idhair, North Korea (really?) or several others that seem to believe handling CF merchandise via the USPS is fine.

By the way, putting COUNTERFEIT on a package to be shipped would no more prevent you from 'qualifying for insurance' due to disclosing the contents than putting label FRAGILE on it. What it will do, is have the USPS refuse, at the very least, to handle it.

 

Stay on point, the issue is the legality of mailing CF or other nefarious merchandise via the USPS. Call and ask them. They will tell you and your attempt to own "our", as in the minority of patently incorrect tiny collective objecting in this thread, is pathetic.