Retooling an already tooled and cleaned half eagle?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by calcol, Aug 24, 2016.

  1. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    Recently saw a raw early half eagle offered by a dealer that was being sold as mint state (based on no wear on the devices) but as cleaned and with the fields tooled. By the looks of it, an accurate description, and obviously no intent to defraud. Then curious statement was made that the field tooling should be redone. Seems a little strange and was maybe a joke. I suppose if a coin has already been defaced, going further to make it look a little prettier is OK. On the other hand, it might make it easier to pass on to a naive collector as problem-free. I wouldn't want it in any case. Opinions?

    Cal
     
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  3. Omegaraptor

    Omegaraptor Gobrecht/Longacre Enthusiast

    Can you post pics so we can see what extent the tooling goes to?
     
    NOS likes this.
  4. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    A novice collector doesn't have any business buying a half eagle unless it is slabbed. Unfortunately a lot will learn that by getting ripped off.
     
  5. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Without seeing pictures I kind of learn towards this side. If it's already been done might as well do it right
     
  6. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    Attached is a pic of the obverse.
    half_eagle_cleaned_tooled_fields.jpg
     
  7. Paul M.

    Paul M. Well-Known Member

    This is a crime against numismatics. :(
     
  8. Noah Finney

    Noah Finney Well-Known Member

    it looks a if it was fake.
     
  9. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    When lot's of this stuff was done to coins, there was no us "numismatics." :(
     
  10. Noah Finney

    Noah Finney Well-Known Member

    if it is fake don't fall for it.
     
  11. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Damaging Coins Daily

    that looks fake to me. But what do I know?

    considering myself a novice. I haven't read that in any Red/Blue Book or anything that one should only buy slabbed coins. I'd be worried anyways, reading about how many slabs are faked.
     
  12. MKent

    MKent Well-Known Member

    If you're not an expert that coin should only be purchased from someone you trust and probably slabbed as well.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  13. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Hey guys, how about trying this approach as it will help all of us learn something: No matter your knowledge or skill level, when you post a comment calling a coin counterfeit, please give your reasons. Then the experts here can either agree with your reason or not. We'll all learn something from your post.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  14. MKent

    MKent Well-Known Member

    I agree completely. Just saying somethimg is fake doesn't help anyone learn. I doesn't look right to me but I've never seen one so that could be why I think it looks odd. I'd never say somethimg was fake without an explanation.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  15. Blissskr

    Blissskr Well-Known Member

    Any better pictures of both obverse and reverse? It looks like the 1804 small eight based on that obverse picture.
     
  16. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    The reverse is posted below. The posted pics are the only ones I have.

    I'm not going to reveal the dealer for several reasons. However, they are no relation of mine, and I have never done business with them. This dealer would definitely recognize a fake with only field tooling. A combination of cleaning and tooling will make a lot genuine coins look like fakes. As long as the tooling is only in the fields though, an expert can usually differentiate real from fake by examining the devices and edge.

    Cal

    half_eagle_rev_cleaned_tooled_fields.jpg
     
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Ya know, there's little that really gets my hackles up more than something like that ! And no, I don't mean at you Cal - I mean at the idea.

    We have a coin that has been admittedly harshly cleaned and tooled - and yet it is being hawked as MS. Say what ??? In what universe does something like that happen ? In what universe CAN something like that happen ????

    Oh wait I forgot - it's this universe :rolleyes:

    This exactly why, precisely why, I'll be nice here and say "upset" when the TPGs decided to start slabbing problem coins back in, what was it, 2007 ? This post made by Cal, and thousands, tens of thousands, of others just like it are the result of that decision.

    Ever since the very advent of grading it was admitted and recognized that problem coins did not have a grade, could not even be graded - because they were problem coins. And for the first 20 years of their existence the TPGs absolutely refused to slab any problem coin. And they promised, swore up and down in writing, that they would never, ever, not in this universe or some other - slab a problem coin. And then in 2007 they threw all those promises and pledges out the window. Threw out the very foundation, the corner stone, of grading - and began slabbing problem coins.

    And what do have now ? We have a collector, like Cal, who because of this sees nothing wrong with a dealer offering a coin that has been harshly cleaned AND tooled, and yet is describing that coin as MS. And Cal says - no intent to defraud.

    Say what ? :wideyed: I mean what in the world do ya call that ? The term MS shouldn't even be allowed on the same page of advertising or description of that coin ! MS is being used as a false enticement to lessen the negative facts regarding that coin.

    I mean I see as a used car dealer hawking his wares by saying - look at this car over here, it's only got 387,000 miles on it, only runs on 3 cylinders, the seats are only torn in 18 places, but we just hand waxed it and she's a beauty ! And best of all she can be yours for only 5 grand !

    Now I have no problem with people selling problem coins when they list what those problems are, none at all. What I do have a problem with is when at the very same time they use the term MS in conjunction with their offer ! :inpain:

    OK, end of rant.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
    micbraun likes this.
  18. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    I agree with your point, but at least the car can be fixed. This coin however, can not be.

    One point i would like to make, is that coins like this can sometimes be a good thing for collectors. Someone like me who has to budget what to spend on a coin, this problem coin has been devalued to the point where it is more affordable. And also educational.

    I don't have a problem with TPGs slabbing a coin like this. Don't give it a grade like ms or a grade at all but if it was slabbed at least we would know it was genuine.
     
  19. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    The chance of getting a fake slab is miniscule to the chance of getting a fake raw coin. The Red/Blue books are not the end all, be all. If you don't want to buy slabbed coins, it's your money. But as a novice, you have a tremendous chance of losing your shirt dealing with raw coins, not only with counterfeits but with cleaned coins passed off as uncirculated.
     
  20. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    Doug,

    I don't have a problem with TPGs slabbing problem coins and accurately describing the problem on the slab. The rub (so to speak) is whether any grade can be assigned, either adjectival or numerical. Where we differ is that I think in many cases, an accurate adjectival grade can be assigned. I have a Roman Republic collection, and virtually all ancients would be problem coins if graded by standards applied to U.S. coins, yet they are assigned adjectival grades. Folks can dispute what the grade should be, but the assignment of some grade is routine. In the broad area of numismatics (and not just ancients), adjectival grades are often assigned to problem coins with little controversy. It's with U.S. coins, more than any other area, where the debate rages.

    As far as the present coin in the post is concerned, I think the dealer called it mint state based on lack of wear on the high points. Uncirculated or unworn would have been more accurate because it's definitely not in the state it was in when it left the mint. So you have a point there. However, because the problems were described, I don't see an intent to defraud.

    Cal
     
    Insider likes this.
  21. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Need to disagree here. The first grading service (International Numismatic Society Authentication Service) sent grading opinions on all coins using the TRUE "Technical Grading System." There were cases where coins were returned as Uncirculated, chop marked; Uncirculated, corroded edge; AU, rim damage, etc. At ANA Summer Seminars in the 70's, as students were taught TRUE "technical grading" the usual example used was to catch a coin right off the coining press, saw it in half and now describe the coin to a blind man. Correct Answer. Mint State, cut in half from 12 to 6 o'clock. Thus: ALL COINS CAN BE GRADED no matter their condition.

    Now, you wrote about more modern times, the 1980's. True technical grading was becoming obsolete and only practiced at INSAB. ANACS used a bastardized system (they called it "technical" although it was not). NCI used their own system. Along came PCGS and NGC and "commercial/market" grading.

    Problem was there was a revolt (JUSTIFIED) when these clowns kept peoples' money for doing nothing except shipping "body bags." The folks at PCI were the first grading service to holder problem coins with a red label. The owner of that company claimed if he knew how lucrative this would have been, he would have done it from the start. Just to show that the TPGS claim of never slabbing problem coins was a total farce - I know that many, many dealers approached the PCI graders at shows to let them know how many PCI red labeled coins were cracked out and straight graded by NGC and PCGS!!!

    As I wrote above, ANY COIN CAN BE GRADED. So, IMHO, the fact that the major TPGS do it is a plus for the hobby. The coin in the photo is an AU due to a slight amount of friction (luster loss) on the high points and the die break is solid and virtually unbroken; yet the fields have been destroyed!

    I'll bet it would get an AU "details" grade at a TPGS. A similar coin with that little amount of rub and more pristine fields, could have graded as high as MS-62!:facepalm:
     
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