Retoning a cleaned coin?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by BigTee44, Feb 10, 2016.

  1. BigTee44

    BigTee44 Well-Known Member

    A guy on IG said he is able to buy cleaned coins. He strips them and then sends them back in for grading and they won't get a details grade.

    Is this even possible?

    image.jpeg image.jpeg
    image.jpeg image.jpeg
     
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Possible, yes. Probable, not so much.

    But there is something else that is very possible, that the coin above if photographed from a slightly different angle or with different lighting would show it has been harshly cleaned. What I'm trying to tell you is that just because you can't see the scratches and hairlines in that picture does not mean you can't see them at all.

    Toning can sometimes hide or make a previous harsh cleaning hard to see, but it does not make it impossible to see. When turned and rolled under a good light the hairlines and light scratches from a harsh cleaning still show up. And if a grader is on his toes it's pretty hard to get it past them. Of course the severity of the harsh cleaning plays a part. The more severe it was the easier it will be to see, the less severe the harder to see.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
    BadThad, medoraman, Insider and 2 others like this.
  4. Cascade

    Cascade CAC Variety Nerd

    Well, does he show step 3... In a straight graded big 3 slab?
     
  5. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    That coin looks awful.
     
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  6. BigTee44

    BigTee44 Well-Known Member

    He said there's still 2 weeks of retoning before he sends it in. So I guess we'll see.
     
  7. Markus1959

    Markus1959 Well-Known Member

    Leave the coins alone and make an omelet with those eggs, they don't produce good toning on silver anyway, unless you don't like shiny rings or chains.
     
  8. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    I think this is an urban legend. Experienced graders have seen everything--all attempts to hide defects on coins. Re-toning a cleaned coin is usually pretty obvious. While this is possible, theoretically, it is highly unlikely.
     
    BadThad likes this.
  9. Markus1959

    Markus1959 Well-Known Member

    Maybe he sends the coins here for grading (taken from a previous forum today)

    https://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/cbd/5416602153.html
     
  10. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    It will all depend on the cleaning. If it leaves hairlines especially a lot of them you're unlikely to be successful. If it was something that was just over dipped with no hairlines you have a fighting chance. If he's claiming he can do it with any cleaned coin that would just be internet posturing trying to show off
     
  11. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I agree with Doug. Toning used to be a big negative to a coin, precisely because it could hide defects. People in the past were not evil by dipping a coin, it was accepted to show there were no defects on the coin that toning might hide.

    Can you retone? Of course. Will it completely hide scratch marks? No, or course not. It can fool new collectors, but not experienced ones. Dealers used to take a defective coin, clean it, then retone it to make it look nicer. It didn't make the cleaning go away, but made the coin look better.

    Now, slightly different question. Can a dealer tone a coin that has not been damaged? Absolutely, and there is almost no way you will ever know. Think about that when you see the sky high prices for "pretty" toning.
     
    ikes4ever likes this.
  12. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    IMO, anyone who can artificially put "market acceptable," beautiful, desirable color on a coin deserves to make $$$$$$$$$$$.

    Toning Good, toning bad, BU good, BU bad...many of us have been through it over the decades. Get it right and give them what they want. :)
     
  13. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator


    Didn't I read in another post that you work for one of the TPG's? If so, chew on this . . . the TPG's claim to grade to STANDARDS!

    My point? . . . Standards are not fickle, and do not blow with the wind.

    Just because consumer trends change does not mean you are not responsible for delivering the consistency we pay you for.

    "give them what they want" is not an acceptable stance if you are paid for consistency, yet bow to trends in the market.
     
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  14. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    No but AT vs NT in many cases is really nothing more than an educated guess. Its like the question of if you can't tell a coin was dipped was it actually dipped?
     
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  15. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    True about the toning, but not the cleaning.
     
  16. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    o_O Yeah, :hilarious::hilarious::hilarious::hilarious::hilarious: :shame: and I claimed to be a girl too! :p It was in the thread about coin dealer's lying. A Moderator pulled my post and warned me not to do anything like that again. :facepalm:

    Unfortunately, IMO, you are very naïve. Are you a coin dealer? A new collector?As you have stated, A STANDARD should not change, otherwise it is NOT A STANDARD. However, standards DO change. All sorts of them change, have changed, and will change in the future.

    It appears that many here on CT drink the "swill" that is spouted by the old timers WHO ARE FREE to grade to any standard they choose. Unfortunately, IMO, they are leading the new collectors astray.


    @ToughCOINS
    The standards for grading coins HAVE CHANGED. I don't like it, I don't agree with it, and I DON'T FOLLOW THEM. My personal coin grading standards are the same as they were in the 1960's! Nevertheless, I am a realist. The standards I choose to follow are not "market acceptable" anymore. That's why I could NEVER be a grader.;) So I have evolved. I still have my personal standards and I learned and UNDERSTAND the TPGS standards (as practiced now). In the future, when they surely change more, I will learn the "new" standards.

    :hilarious::hilarious::hilarious::hilarious: You :bigtears::bigtears::bigtears: need to write a letter to someone who cares. You can find the addresses to the four major grading services on the Internet. If they were interested in "customer service," I'll bet you would receive a reply similar to mine.:D:cigar:

    Interestingly, you and the other naïve collectors think you are the consumers. In reality, coin dealers are the real consumers and they help/agree with the changes going on.o_O:wideyed:
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  17. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Both these are judgment calls as to "market acceptability" for the TPGS BUT NOT FOR YOU AND ME.:yawn:
     
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  18. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Um, no. Us "old timers" are not leading new collectors astray. Its collectors like you who believe you should blindly drink the TPG koolaid, not learn to grade for themselves, and simply blindly accept whatever grade a TPG puts on a slab, (many times by accident), who are leading new collectors astray. My advice has always been to learn to grade FOR YOURSELF. Only the sheeple who are too lazy to grade for themselves and accept whatever grade a TPG puts on a piece of plastic are the ones who suffer. REAL collectors spend the work to learn how to grade, and can pick out fairly graded coins from overgraded POS's. If you do not learn to grade by yourself, then I am afraid to tell you that you have an overpriced, inferior coin collection as a result.

    Think about it. Basically by definition, with crackouts and resubmissions, the grade on a slab is the HIGHEST POSSIBLE grade that coin could ever have. If the TPG undergrades it, there are 100 dealers waiting to buy it, crack it out, and resubmit. This happens so often that it has to be assumed the case for all coins. So, either the slab is FAIRLY graded, or OVER graded. If you do not know how to grade yourself, then you are the sucker buying all of those overgraded slabs.

    Btw, for the same reasons, (crackouts, etc), pop reports are meaningless. I personally know of hundreds of slabs that got cracked out and resubmitted. Do those "old" grades ever get taken OUT of pop reports? Of course not.
     
  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Pop reports can still be used as a general guide for where the coin will start to get extremely hard to locate that is nice for a grade. But yea any pop just below a huge value jump you can assume has been inflated if not significantly inflated.
     
  20. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Thanks for the input. I think you will be surprised that I agree with much of your post . Comments follow.


     
  21. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I could go all day, (not really, have work to do), but I am just curious as to what "extent" TPG grades are "guaranteed"? They do not grade to any standard, so what THEY SAY is an MS63 by definition is what THEY SAY. There is literally nothing for them to be accountable TO. That fact is what us "old timers" resent. The TPG's literally have no responsibility to anyone, their grades are on their face meaningless since there is no accountability. If they wish to change MS70 standards tomorrow to allow obvious wear on the coin there is not one dang thing I, you, or anyone can do about it. So why does the hobby keep giving them money?????

    I don't. If I buy a slab I crack it out and throw the plastic away. Its my HOBBY. I collect coins for my pleasure, and part of that pleasure is my ability to actually touch coins.
     
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