Featured Restoring artificially toned coins

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by C-B-D, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    Hello, everyone. In the past couple of months I have successfully conserved 2 coins that had artificial toning. PLEASE NOTE: This is only informational based on my experience. Be careful if attempting to do this for your own coins. My first successful attempt was on an NGC XF45 1827 Capped Bust Half Dollar, that I bought because it was the unidentified 1827/6 over-date. When I received the coin, it was clearly artificially toned and had what I call a "chalky" appearance to the bluish toning, which hid the luster and dulled the surfaces.

    Here is the link to that thread, showing the coin: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/i-thought-i-screwed-up-but-got-rewarded-a-submission-story.248248/

    Even though it was in a problem-free NGC holder, it was clearly a problem coin to my eyes, so I cracked it out and used the following method:
    1. Spend a TON of time inspecting the artificially toned coin for hairlines, scratches, or damage underneath the toning. Use a black light and LED light, which often help bring out underlying hairlines. Usually, coins are artificially toned to hide a problem. HOWEVER, sometimes coins are artificially toned to enhance the color or create more eye-appeal, subjective as it may be, for collectors.
    2. Use dip diluted heavily with distilled water. I used about 20 parts water to 1 part E*Z*Est coin dip. You can't be too careful here, so water it down even more if you want, and take your time!
    3. Apply by pouring it over the surfaces repeatedly. Only use a Q-Tip after trying the pouring method repeatedly for a LONG time. Hopefully, you won't need to do this at all. Patience is the key. And when I used a Q-Tip, I did not grind it on the surfaces. I just swept it over lightly in a circular motion, and it lifted the fake tone off the surface.

    That 1827/6 came back from PCGS as AU50, so not only did I save it from it's artificially toned state, it also upgraded the coin from XF to AU, though this is the exception, not the rule, I am sure.

    Here is my latest attempt using the same method above. I bought this coin raw for $400 because I thought it was the Tripled Die Reverse FS-801 variety, and it turned out I was right. But the coin was black on the obverse and nearly black on the reverse, save for some colorful fake toning in the center around the eagle. In this case, I inspected the coin exhaustively, and found no evidence of prior cleaning or hidden damage. It appeared to me that someone either wanted to tone the coin to hide the wear and make it appear uncirculated, or they let their artificial toning method go too long and it blackened the coin. In either case, it was apparent in-hand that the toning was artificial. It had that chalky dull look to it. So here are the before and after pics:
    combinebefore.jpg combineafter.jpg

    As you can see, the difference is night and day. The first thing I noticed upon completing the restoration was that the wear on the coin was now easily noticeable on all the high points such as the face, cap, olive branch, eagle head, feathers, etc. Clearly, this is not a BU coin. The second thing I noticed was the luster! Wow! Also, I was happy to see that the die tripling on the reverse was now so prominent, you could see it with the naked eye. Here is a close-up of it:
    combine3.jpg

    PCGS graded this coin problem-free AU58, and I had them add the variety to the label. This is my first cherrypicked TDR, FS-801 barber half, and my second restoration of a coin suffering from artificial toning. So far I'm batting 1000 on these, but I'm sure that one day I'll strike out. I would imagine that this information would be useful to people wanting to remove obviously fake toning from a gemmy coin, particularly Morgan dollars, as those often come artificially toned even though the coin itself may grade MS65.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2014
    kolnikov, mac266, RaceBannon and 17 others like this.
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  3. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    Nice post sir. I agree with your take on the situation. The real key is knowledge and thorough inspection. You are 100% correct AT is a common way, (too common), to hide problems. It was the main reason why toned coins used to bring a discount, not a premium, since its so much more work to ensure the coin is problem free if its toned.

    You are extremely lucky the second coin came out well. I would have given it a 20% chance of not being corroded. I have dipped lots of black coins, and unfortunately most did not come out as well as yours. Black is the terminal state of toning, after that its straight corrosion. The only black toned coins that can survive are the glossy black ones like yours, once its a matte black, (not shiny), its like a 1% chance it will not be corroded.

    Overall, nice write-up sir. I am sure it will be helpful. Also, I highly agree with using watered down dip. Always start with the least intrusive method on a coin, and work your way up if needed. Also, for those who have not done it, please start on junk coins. Go find some junk silver or toned Lincoln cents first and make your errors on those coins, or simply find someone who is knowledgable on how to do this. I learned from a dealer who had done it for 40 years before I ever touched a coin like this.
     
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  4. ijconnor

    ijconnor New Member

    Have you tried removing AT off of copper?
     
  5. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    I have not, and should clarify that my 2 successes are on silver coins.
     
    ijconnor likes this.
  6. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Very Informative. Thank you for sharing.
     
  7. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Good eye and great results.
     
  8. robec

    robec Junior Member

    This method works well with coins doctored by various methods. How will it work with coins treated with gasses or heat?
     
  9. Aidan_()

    Aidan_() Numismatic Contributor

    Nice stuff CBD. :D
     
  10. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    Honestly, I only know how to deal with these chalky, thickly artificially toned coins, and I actually don't know how they are created. I just know how to undo the damage (assuming the tone isn't there to hide a problem).
    I believe the barber half was toned to hide the wear, so that someone could sell it as uncirculated.
     
  11. geekpryde

    geekpryde Husband and Father Moderator

    Very impressive! Great write-up and photos.
     
  12. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Like C-B-D said , I've never heard of a way to dip copper , dipping copper will usually give it a pinkish hue which is a dead giveaway . My advice is to leave copper alone and avoid buying problem pieces .
    Good post C-B-D .
     
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Coin dip, which is what he is using even though it is diluted, will remove both artificial and natural toning. And in many, if not most, cases there is no way to distinguish one from the other. Coins toned with gasses for example are indistinguishable from naturally toned coins. And again in many if not most cases, the person dipping the coin doesn't care if the toning is AT or NT, they just want to remove the toning from the coin because they don't like it. Or because they suspect that dipping the coin will be beneficial. And even possibly reveal a gem underneath it.

    But here is the problem, you never know what will lie underneath that toning. Like CBD says above -

    Striking out, as he put it, is often the case. Dipping the coin often results in being detrimental rather than beneficial. Or to put it another way a $1000 coin suddenly becomes a $200 coin because it was dipped. Now that is not because the dipping damaged the coin, but rather because the dipping revealed what previously could not be seen. Once dipped you may see that the coin is covered with hairlines from having been harshly cleaned long ago, or wear that could not be seen may be revealed. Even unseen damage and corrosion can be revealed by the dipping.

    CBD obviously knows this, but he also knows that sometimes you win rather than losing. It's basically a coin flip, unless you have the knowledge and experience to be able to judge the specific coin. In the specific cases he posted about he recognized specific varieties, and that gave him a bit of an edge. So that even if the dipping revealed detrimental underlying issues, they could perhaps be offset by better revealing the variety. And he got lucky.

    So, for those who read this thread, don't think that dipping a coin is some magical answer, it isn't. Yes, it can be, but it can also be a disaster. It is important that is always remembered.

    Also, CBD's method, yes it worked and worked well for him. But it could have been all over and done with in about 1 second, literally. And with the same results. But he preferred to take the slow method, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't change what the outcome will be. If there is a disaster underlying the toning it will be revealed by the slow method and the quick method both.

    The slow method merely lessens the chances of you making a mistake by not dipping the coin properly. But using the slow method does not mean you won't make a mistake and ruin the coin, you still can.
     
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  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    As for the issue of dipping copper, it has long been my opinion that it not only can be done successfully, but that it is done successfully, and has been for many years. And no, I don't know of any secret method, and I certainly would not reveal it if I did. What I do know is that there is a huge number of copper coins, some even 200 years old, that have been judged to be original mint red. And knowledge, coupled with common sense tells us that this should not be so.

    Copper is the most reactive of our coinage metals, it tones exponentially faster than silver, nickel, and gold. And since toning cannot be stopped, only slowed down, then it stands to reason that very, very, few copper coins should exist as original mint red.

    Couple that with the fact that countless numbers of copper coins in TPG slabs designated as Red, are in fact no longer Red. But instead Red Brown or ever Brown. In other words the toning has occurred inside the slab, after the coin was slabbed. And yes, some of these cases are undoubtedly due to improper storage after the coin was slabbed. But even many of those that were properly stored, still toned and turned RB or BR.

    So, given that in today's world we have learned how to store coins to slow down toning as much as it can be slowed down, and that many collectors utilize these proper storage methods, and the coins still turn after being slabbed - there are only two possible answers. 1 - a whole lot of people got really lucky, huge numbers of them. And 2 - there is a successful way to dip copper. Otherwise there could never have been such huge numbers of them judged Red to begin with.

    You can decide for yourself which is more probable.
     
  15. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    Excellent write-up as usual Doug. The thing about going slow is you can do it in stages. I have had coins "going bad" as I lightened the toning, and I was able to stop. It didn't stop the damage from being there, but let me stop it being so glaringly obvious. However, it takes much longer. After a while I just quickly dipped all coins, and if it was ugly retoned them.

    Like you say, if you spend a LOT of time examining a coin you can USUALLY see if it will be bad or not, but never a guarantee. I have had coins I SWORE would be fine come out with major problems, and others I gave a 5% chance come out beautifully.
     
  16. frog eye 73

    frog eye 73 Member

    Great read. Thanks for sharing:)
     
  17. Tom B

    Tom B TomB Everywhere Else

    You did well, but I don't believe you actually "restored" either coin, but instead performed a market acceptable dip job on each.
     
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  18. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    I guess I restored it just like PCGS Restoration Service does, huh?
     
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  19. Tom B

    Tom B TomB Everywhere Else

    Yep!;)
     
    C-B-D likes this.
  20. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Nah, you did better!
     
    C-B-D likes this.
  21. Walking Sterling Silver

    Walking Sterling Silver 16 Years Old and Love to Learn

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