Render unto Caesar....

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Pishpash, Aug 5, 2020.

  1. Pishpash

    Pishpash Supporter! Supporter

    I will get around to taking photos in the next few months. It arrived this morning, and I was thrilled. Shinier in hand than the photo suggests, it is fabulous :D
    tribute penny.PNG
    Tiberius, AD 14-37
    AR denarius, 20mm, 3.8g, 6h; Lugdunum 36-37 AD
    Obv: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS; Laureate head right.
    Rev: PONTIF MAXIM; Livia (as Pax) seated right, holding vertical scepter in right hand and olive branch in left, feet on footstool; ornate chair legs, double line below.
    Reference: RIC I 30.
    From the Sallent Collection


    An important note concerning the Tribute Penny, Lot 14, from our friend @Roman Collector Collector...

    You should edit your description of the Tiberius denarius, making note that it is Giard Lyon, group 3, (RIC 28; BMCRE 42-44; RSC 16b), which is rare. Only about only 2% of Tiberius denarii are this type.(thank you, thank you, thank you).

    https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tribute penny

    Group 3, c. 18 A.D.
    Obverse: Same as group 2.
    Reverse: Base under the throne is diminished, the ornamentation on the legs of the throne is simplified from group 2, Pax's feet rest on a low footstool.
    Aureus: Giard Lyon, group 3, 147; RIC I 29 var. (scepter instead of spear, single line under throne, R); BMCRE I 46 var. (same); Calico 305a (S.3); Cohen 15; SRCV I 1760 - Rare -
    Denarius: Giard Lyon, group 3, 148; RIC I 30 var. (scepter instead of spear, single line under throne, C); BMCRE I 45; RSC II 16b; SRCV I 1763 - Rare (only about only 2% of Tiberius denarii are this type) 84235
     
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  3. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark standing on the shoulders of giants Dealer

    It a nice example, but your coin has an inverted spear rather than scepter. You can see the head of the spear (V-shaped) that meets the ground.
     
  4. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter I dig ancient coins...

    A good opportunity to quote Matthew 22:16-22 @Pishpash:

    "And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. (17) Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? (18) But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? (19) Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. (20) And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? (21) They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. 22) When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way...

    Great coin!
     
  5. Pishpash

    Pishpash Supporter! Supporter

    Love it, but where does "penny" come from?
     
  6. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Supporter! Supporter

    Nice score :D! Both sides look great but the reverse is exceptional :cool:.
     
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  7. J.T. Parker

    J.T. Parker Well-Known Member

    Could it be?
    12 pence (pennies) = 1 shilling
    Written 12d. (denarii) = 1 shilling
    Beautiful denarius,
    J.T.
     
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  8. Inspector43

    Inspector43 72 Year Collector

    From translation. The bible had to be translated to terms understood today.
     
  9. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Numismatic jack of all trades & specialist in none Moderator

    That is a smashing Tribute Penny, and I'll wager it cost a pretty penny, too. I'd be proud to own that one.
     
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  10. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..that's a dandy Pish!....congrats!... nero, tiberius galba octavian coins 011.JPG nero, tiberius galba octavian coins 013.JPG
     
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  11. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Numismatic jack of all trades & specialist in none Moderator

    Were I to venture a guess, I'd say the King James Bible (or an even earlier translation of scripture into English) might've had something to do with that. The English speaking people called a silver coin of that size a "penny".

    Edit: Aha. Yes, according to the Wikipedia article, my guess was on the mark.
     
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  12. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter I dig ancient coins...

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  13. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    Very nice! Those photos seemed quite familiar and then I saw the ex: Sallent and it came together. Congrats on the win!
    Beautiful coin.
     
  14. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter I dig ancient coins...

    I almost bid on that one in the JAZ auction. Would have but I blew my coin bugdet for the month on Vcoins and M-A shops.
     
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  15. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    Had I bid on it it would have blown my budget for the year and probably my marriage hahaha.
     
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  16. techwriter

    techwriter Supporter! Supporter

    Link:https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Tribute Penny

    Found this:
    Jesus, referring to a denarius (translated as a "penny" in later English translations of the text, see below) asked, "Whose is this image and superscription?" When answered that the likeness was Caesar, He replied; ''Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's" (Matthew 22:20-21).

    The Greek text uses the word δηνάριον, a Roman denarius. A denarius, an about dime-sized silver coin, was the usual daily wage of a day laborer during Christ's time on earth. The word "peny" seems first to appear in the handwritten Wycliffe’s Bible translation of the New Testament texts in the 1480’s, followed thereafter by Tyndale's 1526 New Testament, which was the first printed English edition. The Tyndale transcription retained Wycliffe’s term, and later editions changed the spelling to "penny." At the time of translation, the penny was the current silver coin, also about dime-size and also equivalent to a day's pay, and was thus a natural translation of denarius. In fact, the old abbreviation for one English penny (or pence) was 1 d. (for 'denarius'). Later translations, including the King James Version, copied Tyndale closely, with only minor alterations. Owing to the religious tensions in England from the 17th century onward, there were no further 'official' translations until the Revised Version of 1881. By that time the English text had become effectively fossilized. To this day there remain many who vociferously insist that the King James is the only 'proper' Bible.

    The King James Bible says, "Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it..."

    Thus the denarius of the Romans became a "penny" in the English language Bible.

    Pharisees were attempting to trap Jesus into saying Jews should not pay taxes (tribute) to Rome. So, the popular moniker for the coin type shown to Jesus is "The Tribute Penny."

    The Tiberius Denarius - 'The Tribute Penny'
    Since Tiberius was Caesar during Christ's time on earth, the denarius of Tiberius is most often identified as "The Tribute Penny."

    The Tiberius PONTIF MAXIM type denarius, struck from c. 15 to 37 A.D. at the Lugdunum mint (Lyon, France today), is described as follows:

    Obverse legend: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS: Tiberius Caesar, divi Augustus Filius, Augustus - Tiberius Caesars, son of the Divine Augustus, Emperor.
    Obverse type: laureate head of Tiberius right.

    Reverse legend: PONTIF MAXIM: Pontifex Maximus - The High Priest (Chief Pontiff).
    Reverse type: Female enthroned right, long scepter (or inverted spear) vertical behind in right, branch in right.
     
  17. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

    A very nice addition to your collection! I admired this stellar coin in the auction.

    For different reasons, I have my issues with the "Tribute Penny" label, but it certainly is a historically important type that sholdn't be missing from a good Roman general collection.

    Here is mine, which is a more humble group 2:
    Rom – Tiberius Denar, Tribute Penny 1.png
    Tiberius, Roman Empire, denarius, 15–18 AD, Lyon mint. Obv: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS, laureate portrait right. Rev: PONTIF MA[XIM], Livia as Pax seated right on chair with ornately decorated legs, holding sceptre (or spear) and branch. 18mm, 2.8g. Ref: RIC I Tiberius 28; RSC II 16b; Sear 1763; Giard: Le monnayage de l'atelier de Lyon 1 (1983), group 2, 146.
     
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  18. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Supporter! Supporter

    Superb style! That's a great coin; congrats!
     
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  19. Theodosius

    Theodosius Unrepentant Fine Style Freak! Supporter

    Great score, I am happy for you for getting it!

    :)

    John
     
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  20. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    Regarding the "tribute penny" controversy, it might be helpful to note that the Gospel of Mark, the source of the pericope, is believed to have been written in Italy a couple of generations after the events described. Although writing in Greek, the evangelist regularly uses Latinate names for coins. He is writing for his own community in terms that will be understood by them. According to the gospel, the coin is explicitly a "denarius" with the portrait and name of "Caesar". Some argue that a denarius can not possibly be correct because denarii are not known to have circulated in Palestine in that era. I think that this argument misses the point, however. The "tribute penny" that matters, it seems to me, is the one in the mind of the evangelist, historically accurate or not.
     
  21. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..well then..its a great coin with provenance too! :)
     
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